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Thread: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

  1. #21
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    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    Title IX is an abomination for 1 reason ans 1 reason only. Football. There is no other sport out there that requires the numbers like football does, so that drastically skews the numbers in the men side too much. At a D1 level you would need 4 women sports offering 20 scholarships each to equal a football team. There just were not that many type of sports out there to equalize football. If people would have just used their brains and exempt football from title IX or qualified it at 1/4 or 1/2 of the ratio (instead of using 85 they only counted 22 or even 44 of the 85) then many men sports could have been saved. But that would have taken thought and effort and leadership from politicians and Colleges Administrations so we are in our current state because neither group are capable of such matters.
    I think football being exempted would only underscore the need for Title IX. Its safe to assume that Title IX has reigned in football spending at schools below the Power Five. If anything, spending on football at those schools has only increased opportunities for women.

  2. #22

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    I think football being exempted would only underscore the need for Title IX. Its safe to assume that Title IX has reigned in football spending at schools below the Power Five. If anything, spending on football at those schools has only increased opportunities for women.
    And it killed other men's sports because there is NO OTHER SPORT that requires the numbers of football. Wrestling, Swimming, Track and Field, Tennis, Gymnastics all got slaughtered because football numbers are too high. Like IUPNation mentioned, no sport should have got cut, only women sports added. But to come close to equal numbers, schools either had to get rid of football or a bunch of other smaller sports. I do not call a law that basically eliminates opportunity from one group for the benefit of another group, a good law.

    let me ask you this? Do you think it is fair that many booster clubs had emergency fundraising to save their programs (I am most familiar with wrestling programs that did this so that they would at minimum be breaking even) yet they were told it was not enough to save the program because they did not have the funds to save the program and create as new program for women.

  3. #23

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    Title IX is an abomination for 1 reason ans 1 reason only. Football. There is no other sport out there that requires the numbers like football does, so that drastically skews the numbers in the men side too much. At a D1 level you would need 4 women sports offering 20 scholarships each to equal a football team. There just were not that many type of sports out there to equalize football. If people would have just used their brains and exempt football from title IX or qualified it at 1/4 or 1/2 of the ratio (instead of using 85 they only counted 22 or even 44 of the 85) then many men sports could have been saved. But that would have taken thought and effort and leadership from politicians and Colleges Administrations so we are in our current state because neither group are capable of such matters.
    Yes, football is the sport that leads to unequal numbers and cutting men's sports. I don't see a way around that. You can't exempt football because that will just lead to more inequality when viewed from the women's side. You can't take football out of the mix, i.e. give football some other "para-collegiate" status because there is way too much money involved. Not gonna happen. So, we are stuck with the present system, more or less. In the case of LHU Wrestling, the women's program immediately resolves the problems they were facing on the men's side.


    But getting back to the football question, I think the law is fair (by definition). It's the mix of sports that is unequal. Hence, the problems we have.

    I don't think you can blame college administrators or elected officials. Administrators didn't create the law, civil rights lawyers did. That's their job and elected officials made it into law because that is their job.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    And it killed other men's sports because there is NO OTHER SPORT that requires the numbers of football. Wrestling, Swimming, Track and Field, Tennis, Gymnastics all got slaughtered because football numbers are too high. Like IUPNation mentioned, no sport should have got cut, only women sports added. But to come close to equal numbers, schools either had to get rid of football or a bunch of other smaller sports. I do not call a law that basically eliminates opportunity from one group for the benefit of another group, a good law.

    let me ask you this? Do you think it is fair that many booster clubs had emergency fundraising to save their programs (I am most familiar with wrestling programs that did this so that they would at minimum be breaking even) yet they were told it was not enough to save the program because they did not have the funds to save the program and create as new program for women.
    Problem is that you're in the United States - where everyone is created equal and guaranteed equal protection on the basis of sex. If you don't care for that, I suggest you and your dollars support schools that have set themselves up to be exclusive of federal equality laws such as Grove City and Hillsdale.

    I don't really think Title IX killed men's gymnastics as much as it fell out of favor. http://www.iowastatedaily.com/sports...6425ce7d8.html

  5. #25

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    Problem is that you're in the United States - where everyone is created equal and guaranteed equal protection on the basis of sex. If you don't care for that, I suggest you and your dollars support schools that have set themselves up to be exclusive of federal equality laws such as Grove City and Hillsdale.

    I don't really think Title IX killed men's gymnastics as much as it fell out of favor. http://www.iowastatedaily.com/sports...6425ce7d8.html
    There is a thing called outliers. When there is an outlier most laws make exception for them. Look at the smoking ban (which is a bad law for other reasons but that is neither here nor there) they still have exceptions for Bars that do not profit from food. Why? Because Bars are outliers, it is understood they play by a different set of rules then the rest of the hospitality sector so exceptions are made. In the world of Title IX, football is an outlier. No other sport needs the numbers like football does. When you are creating women's crew and giving scholarships to a bunch of girls who have little to no experience in the sports while taking away wrestling, Track and Field, and other men's sports where the athletes had worked on their craft for years for Title IX compliance, something is seriously wrong. I have no issue with creating the womens sports. But it should not be at the expense of established men's sports because one of the men's sports is an outlier. Exceptions should be made.

  6. #26

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    There is a thing called outliers. When there is an outlier most laws make exception for them. Look at the smoking ban (which is a bad law for other reasons but that is neither here nor there) they still have exceptions for Bars that do not profit from food. Why? Because Bars are outliers, it is understood they play by a different set of rules then the rest of the hospitality sector so exceptions are made. In the world of Title IX, football is an outlier. No other sport needs the numbers like football does. When you are creating women's crew and giving scholarships to a bunch of girls who have little to no experience in the sports while taking away wrestling, Track and Field, and other men's sports where the athletes had worked on their craft for years for Title IX compliance, something is seriously wrong. I have no issue with creating the womens sports. But it should not be at the expense of established men's sports because one of the men's sports is an outlier. Exceptions should be made.
    I don't disagree that it is unfortunate cirumstances. However, the law doesnt care whether it's football, field hockey, or tiddly winks. The only thing that matters is representative opportunities. It's up to the school to allocate opportunities equitably. If the school chooses to provide the disproportionate opportunity for football players over other male sports that is their choice and that is usually what happens.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.

  8. #28

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.
    Waited all day for that exact comment.

    Money talks. Wrestling walked.

    As for baseball ... so long as they treat it like an intramural sport ... so be it.

  9. #29

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.
    Not really. FWIW, Frank cut the wrestling and soccer programs to bolster football. Plain and simple.

  10. #30

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    In my experience schools have cut programs that are under supported. Not under performing - under supported. So when IUP cut wrestling it wasn't because IUP wrestling had the worst record - it was because it wasn't drawing the type of support IUP basketball or football gets. If IUP's enrollment continues to shift toward more women (and demographic data suggests that its likely) expect baseball to be next.
    If profits was the goal, then outside of a program here and there, there would be no sports outside of P5 football and men's basketball. There literally would not be a D2 or D3 division, and there would be no womens' sports, because too few would field teams as again most lose money upfront. They only make money through tuition that would not otherwise be there. At best most sports break even or come close to that for net profit (i.e. the actual profit, not back end profit like tuition). Also Duquesne got rid of their wrestling, baseball, and I forget what else and all of them had support. Also this law gets rid of tools the bolster male enrollment figures. Brilliant. When talking about D2 and D3, football and these other sports, they are profitable for the schools through tuition that it would not otherwise have. Most college teams in D2 and D3 have over 100 players, and most players (probably 75 or more of them) get next to nothing in athletic aid. Schools like Seton Hill, Wheeling Jesuit (football/wrestling) and St. Vincent (football) have added men's sports to bolster male enrollment so they can get the tuition money. Title IX is taking a tool away from schools at a time enrollment is going down.

  11. #31

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Waited all day for that exact comment.

    Money talks. Wrestling walked.

    As for baseball ... so long as they treat it like an intramural sport ... so be it.
    Name 1 program in the PSAC that actually turns a profit from operating. Tuition from the players do not count. I bet there are less than 10 that actually turn profits and I am willing to bet that the Wrestling team of Lock Haven is at the top of the list.

  12. #32

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    Name 1 program in the PSAC that actually turns a profit from operating. Tuition from the players do not count. I bet there are less than 10 that actually turn profits and I am willing to bet that the Wrestling team of Lock Haven is at the top of the list.
    Most athletic departments in D1 don't even turn a profit.

    In the Lock Haven example ... they could (should) have cut football 20 years ago. They could have pumped all that money in to wrestling. Instead, they keep putting that dumpster fire of a team out there year after year.

    Keep in mind this is D2. Outside the few of us on here who actually care ... the rest of the world views this level as glorified high school sports.

    You could name a few 'programs' within the PSAC that are probably (technically) profitable -- IUP basketball, Slippery Rock football, etc. They both have very large followings and have some real heavy donors. But, as a whole, none of the 'athletic departments' operate in the black. D2 sports are financial losers. The 'non-revenue' sports are a total drain on the athletic budget. But, overall, they keep kids enrolled.

  13. #33

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Most athletic departments in D1 don't even turn a profit.

    In the Lock Haven example ... they could (should) have cut football 20 years ago. They could have pumped all that money in to wrestling. Instead, they keep putting that dumpster fire of a team out there year after year.

    Keep in mind this is D2. Outside the few of us on here who actually care ... the rest of the world views this level as glorified high school sports.

    You could name a few 'programs' within the PSAC that are probably (technically) profitable -- IUP basketball, Slippery Rock football, etc. They both have very large followings and have some real heavy donors. But, as a whole, none of the 'athletic departments' operate in the black. D2 sports are financial losers. The 'non-revenue' sports are a total drain on the athletic budget. But, overall, they keep kids enrolled.
    Exactly, that was my point. So I don't want to hear crap that Money Talks, because if that was the case there would be no sports at all outside of P5 football and basketball. There would be no D2 or D3 sports. There would be no womens sports unless there was literally like a 6-10 team Womens Basketball league. There would be no other college sport other than P5 football and D1 mens Basketball. All the other sports would have less than 10 schools participating. So since Title IX is not about profitability but opportunity, then they are destroying opportunity from one group and giving it to another group. I think that sucks, the law should have been written in a way that encourages more opportunity for women without destroying it for men. Exempting football or only partially counting the numbers would have helped a lot in that. Again in my example about the hospitality industry, they made exemptions for bars. It is not out of the realm to do so.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    If profits was the goal, then outside of a program here and there, there would be no sports outside of P5 football and men's basketball. There literally would not be a D2 or D3 division, and there would be no womens' sports, because too few would field teams as again most lose money upfront. They only make money through tuition that would not otherwise be there. At best most sports break even or come close to that for net profit (i.e. the actual profit, not back end profit like tuition). Also Duquesne got rid of their wrestling, baseball, and I forget what else and all of them had support. Also this law gets rid of tools the bolster male enrollment figures. Brilliant. When talking about D2 and D3, football and these other sports, they are profitable for the schools through tuition that it would not otherwise have. Most college teams in D2 and D3 have over 100 players, and most players (probably 75 or more of them) get next to nothing in athletic aid. Schools like Seton Hill, Wheeling Jesuit (football/wrestling) and St. Vincent (football) have added men's sports to bolster male enrollment so they can get the tuition money. Title IX is taking a tool away from schools at a time enrollment is going down.
    Seton Hill added football as a strategy to transition from all female to co-ed. Wheeling Jesuit and St. Vincent added football to boost enrollment. Private schools are really different though because its generally less work to start a sport because they don't have to go out and raise the scholarship money. Every scholarship dollar at IUP is a real dollar raised by donations or some other revenue stream. Every scholarship dollar at Wheeling Jesuit is merely a discount scheme like "recent college grad" $500 off at the local Chevy dealer.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    Exactly, that was my point. So I don't want to hear crap that Money Talks, because if that was the case there would be no sports at all outside of P5 football and basketball. There would be no D2 or D3 sports. There would be no womens sports unless there was literally like a 6-10 team Womens Basketball league. There would be no other college sport other than P5 football and D1 mens Basketball. All the other sports would have less than 10 schools participating. So since Title IX is not about profitability but opportunity, then they are destroying opportunity from one group and giving it to another group. I think that sucks, the law should have been written in a way that encourages more opportunity for women without destroying it for men. Exempting football or only partially counting the numbers would have helped a lot in that. Again in my example about the hospitality industry, they made exemptions for bars. It is not out of the realm to do so.
    Money talks from an alumni donations perspective. Minor college athletics survive in spite of P/L redness because of two things: they drive enrollment and they drive alumni engagement. On the budget sheet athletics on the small scale look like money losers but that's also additional students choosing Slippery Rock and bringing their tuition dollars with them. On the flipside, a lot of alumni will send in $100 to the football team before they send $100 without strings attached. For example, athletic fundraising accounts for 10-20% of all fundraising in a given year and an even greater share of smaller donations.

  16. #36

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikefln View Post
    Exactly, that was my point. So I don't want to hear crap that Money Talks, because if that was the case there would be no sports at all outside of P5 football and basketball. There would be no D2 or D3 sports. There would be no womens sports unless there was literally like a 6-10 team Womens Basketball league. There would be no other college sport other than P5 football and D1 mens Basketball. All the other sports would have less than 10 schools participating. So since Title IX is not about profitability but opportunity, then they are destroying opportunity from one group and giving it to another group. I think that sucks, the law should have been written in a way that encourages more opportunity for women without destroying it for men. Exempting football or only partially counting the numbers would have helped a lot in that. Again in my example about the hospitality industry, they made exemptions for bars. It is not out of the realm to do so.

    Yes, but at IUP money did talk. It walked over to football and men's basketball. The other sports were cut or just ignored.

    All the other sports you're talking about put paying customers (students) on campus. That's the real reason they exist ... not for the 23 people who watch a wrestling match at UPJ.

    BTW, money ALWAYS does the talking.

  17. #37

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    Seton Hill added football as a strategy to transition from all female to co-ed. Wheeling Jesuit and St. Vincent added football to boost enrollment. Private schools are really different though because its generally less work to start a sport because they don't have to go out and raise the scholarship money. Every scholarship dollar at IUP is a real dollar raised by donations or some other revenue stream. Every scholarship dollar at Wheeling Jesuit is merely a discount scheme like "recent college grad" $500 off at the local Chevy dealer.

    That's worked out pretty well so far for Wheeling Jesuit. Or, so I hear.

  18. #38

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    BTW, money ALWAYS does the talking.
    Money and Title IX. But not necessarily in that order.

  19. #39

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Yes, but at IUP money did talk. It walked over to football and men's basketball. The other sports were cut or just ignored.

    All the other sports you're talking about put paying customers (students) on campus. That's the real reason they exist ... not for the 23 people who watch a wrestling match at UPJ.

    BTW, money ALWAYS does the talking.
    Again, exactly what I said only stated in a different manner.

  20. #40

    Default Re: LHU adding Women's Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    Money talks from an alumni donations perspective. Minor college athletics survive in spite of P/L redness because of two things: they drive enrollment and they drive alumni engagement. On the budget sheet athletics on the small scale look like money losers but that's also additional students choosing Slippery Rock and bringing their tuition dollars with them. On the flipside, a lot of alumni will send in $100 to the football team before they send $100 without strings attached. For example, athletic fundraising accounts for 10-20% of all fundraising in a given year and an even greater share of smaller donations.
    Basically what I stated, only in a different manner and with a few more details.

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