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Thread: Hardin Simmons to D2?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herb Street View Post
    Assuming they have capacity in the dorms, classrooms, and dining halls, the incremental cost for a private university for “scholarships” is probably 10 cents on the dollar or less.

    If a private school charges Joe Public $50K a year to attend, that does not mean that it actually costs the U. that amount to educate Joe. They are likely banking a chunk of that for endowments to give to other students for scholarships, which go right back into, you guessed it, the school.

    If you are paying a professor $50K a year to teach English, your costs don’t increase because the class size goes from 20 to 30. In fact it costs you nothing. He just has more papers to grade.

    If you have a 100 room dorm, the fixed expenses of keeping that dorm functioning are close to the same, whether it is 80 percent occupied or 100 percent.

    Private schools are in their own world, operating with a very different set of rules.

    There are plenty of private schools out there sporting an endowment of $1 BILLION or more. When Joe Public is awarded a $50K “scholarship”, they aren’t paying him a red cent. Whatever incremental COSTS there are to educate Joe might come out of the endowment. The rest is just Monopoly money.
    So, if your saying it doesn’t cost more to go to Private Universities, why aren’t more students enrolling in them?

    The fact is they do cost quite a bit more. The enrollment at ACU is almost back to where it was before moving to D1. TBH the school hasn’t really grown much in student population since 1977. Although they have added a lot of infrastructure for the same number of students. That’s 30 years of student enrollment being around 4K.

    If you want to say it benefits the the student athlete at private universities that may be so, but it doesn’t help the students overall control costs.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by ASUPops View Post
    The last #'s I was told about was something like $130 million in Non-Operating Revenue. Based on 2018 Financial Reports. Is that not accurate?
    I don't get your question here. I just see that GV's budget is 351. They get 72 from state. They also get 275 from tuition. Granted, no clue on how much comes in on donations etc, but I still stand by my premise that the state does not pay for most of the University. It may for some, but it's all over the map.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwing View Post
    I don't get your question here. I just see that GV's budget is 351. They get 72 from state. They also get 275 from tuition. Granted, no clue on how much comes in on donations etc, but I still stand by my premise that the state does not pay for most of the University. It may for some, but it's all over the map.
    Ok. Have,a great weekend.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Techster88 View Post
    So, if your saying it doesn’t cost more to go to Private Universities, why aren’t more students enrolling in them?

    The fact is they do cost quite a bit more. The enrollment at ACU is almost back to where it was before moving to D1. TBH the school hasn’t really grown much in student population since 1977. Although they have added a lot of infrastructure for the same number of students. That’s 30 years of student enrollment being around 4K.

    If you want to say it benefits the the student athlete at private universities that may be so, but it doesn’t help the students overall control costs.
    Agree

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwing View Post
    I don't get your question here. I just see that GV's budget is 351. They get 72 from state. They also get 275 from tuition. Granted, no clue on how much comes in on donations etc, but I still stand by my premise that the state does not pay for most of the University. It may for some, but it's all over the map.
    Tuition, alot of which is paid by federal grants and state, university, and corporate scholarships, then finally by student loan with subsidised intrest rates, all of which come from tax payer coffers. Either from direct payment or as tax write offs.

    Private universities get very little of that, athletic scholarships come from a shell game where the university shows charges like tuition being paid off without actual miney changing hands. Its a budgeting trick. Kind if like one department "buying" services or product within the same company.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boohaha View Post
    Tuition, alot of which is paid by federal grants and state, university, and corporate scholarships, then finally by student loan with subsidised intrest rates, all of which come from tax payer coffers. Either from direct payment or as tax write offs.

    Private universities get very little of that, athletic scholarships come from a shell game where the university shows charges like tuition being paid off without actual miney changing hands. Its a budgeting trick. Kind if like one department "buying" services or product within the same company.
    Huh? Money is money. Fed grants and schollys are also available for private schools. But still, one could argue that more donations go to Private schools and people get tax deductions on that. On and on and on. I'm not going there.

    I still stand by my comment that some.. many? PUBLIC schools don't get most of their funds from appropriated state aid. I know I only presented a few and Michigan may be an exception. However, I do know that GVSU gets a small portion from state aid.. less than 20%

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Techster88 View Post
    So, if your saying it doesn’t cost more to go to Private Universities, why aren’t more students enrolling in them?

    The fact is they do cost quite a bit more. The enrollment at ACU is almost back to where it was before moving to D1. TBH the school hasn’t really grown much in student population since 1977. Although they have added a lot of infrastructure for the same number of students. That’s 30 years of student enrollment being around 4K.

    If you want to say it benefits the the student athlete at private universities that may be so, but it doesn’t help the students overall control costs.
    Dude, I'm not saying private universities don't cost more. Of course they do. Often double, triple, or quadruple.

    Let's say TCU's retail price per full time is $65K a year for everything. Number one, few if any are paying that or even close to it. Nearly everyone is getting some sort of scholarship, most in the many thousands.

    It doesn't cost TCU $65,000 per full scholarship athlete to pay for that kid's school. TCU already has the dorms, the professors, and the books. Their actual out of pocket for Johnny Football might be $10K a year if even that. Now I suppose if TCU wants to PAY THEMSELVES the $65K a year and move the money from one account to another, that's their deal.

    State schools do not get the benefit of this type of accounting. A $15,000 full ride is a real $15,000, which must be paid to the university system by someone.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boohaha View Post
    Tuition, alot of which is paid by federal grants and state, university, and corporate scholarships, then finally by student loan with subsidised intrest rates, all of which come from tax payer coffers. Either from direct payment or as tax write offs.

    Private universities get very little of that, athletic scholarships come from a shell game where the university shows charges like tuition being paid off without actual miney changing hands. Its a budgeting trick. Kind if like one department "buying" services or product within the same company.
    correct. Maybe you can help a few on this board catch on. This seems to be a very difficult concept to grasp.

  9. Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herb Street View Post
    correct. Maybe you can help a few on this board catch on. This seems to be a very difficult concept to grasp.
    I believe the rebuttal most are making to you is:

    It is easier to carry the cost of a few hundred student athletes with enrollment of 12K than 3K

    And it is easier to recruit at the D2 level, with partial scholarships, at cheaper schools. After a partial scholarship a student will pay more out of pocket for a private school over a state school decreasing the odds of attending. Also, a public school can spread scholarships out more, offering less to any one athlete, and still ask the kid to pay less out of pocket than a private school could.

    Given those reasons, Hardin Simmons would struggle recruiting against other D2 schools if they moved up.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by We-Are-Lions View Post
    I believe the rebuttal most are making to you is:

    It is easier to carry the cost of a few hundred student athletes with enrollment of 12K than 3K
    I dont think i nor herb disagree with that either. Now if Hardened sinners found more students, they might explore the move, but right now 3k is really really small. ENMU is 5.5k+ nearly twice as big and cant fully fund football to 36.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by We-Are-Lions View Post
    I believe the rebuttal most are making to you is:

    It is easier to carry the cost of a few hundred student athletes with enrollment of 12K than 3K

    Tell that to Trinity. They have an enrollment of less than half of ENMU. But with an endowment of approaching $1.5 billion, I'm pretty sure they could pay to play in D2 ball (or any other ball for that matter) with the change in their sofa cushions.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by We-Are-Lions View Post
    I believe the rebuttal most are making to you is:

    It is easier to carry the cost of a few hundred student athletes with enrollment of 12K than 3K

    And it is easier to recruit at the D2 level, with partial scholarships, at cheaper schools. After a partial scholarship a student will pay more out of pocket for a private school over a state school decreasing the odds of attending. Also, a public school can spread scholarships out more, offering less to any one athlete, and still ask the kid to pay less out of pocket than a private school could.

    Given those reasons, Hardin Simmons would struggle recruiting against other D2 schools if they moved up.
    DEAD ON.

    Maybe you can help a few on this board catch on. This seems to be a very difficult concept to grasp. LMFAO!!!!!!

  13. Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    First-time poster on this board, long-time lurker here and on the GAC board.

    I remember when HSU dropped scholarship athletics and moved from D-I to D-III. This is when they added football.

    Interesting rumor. Three generations of my wife's family attended Hardin-Simmons. I am an alum of Oklahoma Baptist, and our son currently attends there. We have another son graduating from high school this year. As an alum and as a parent, I'm familiar with how these schools operate.

    Yes, the sticker price is higher at a private school. But, depending on the school, they will offer a good chunk of financial aid to all freshmen based on test scores and GPA. Our son qualified for enough aid to bring the price of OBU down to the price of a public school in Texas. Hardin-Simmons was offering the same type of aid package for both of our sons. We have found that private schools offer much more aid, with the goal of being competitive on price with public schools. Our kids have average to above-average grades, with good test scores, and do not qualify for much (if any) in the way of aid to public schools in Texas.

    In light of HSU's situation, they recently cut programs and staff:

    https://www.reporternews.com/story/n...es/1652769002/

    https://www.baptiststandard.com/news...lty-and-staff/

    I'm not sure if HSU could pull off a move to D-II. They would have to invest in partial scholarships in all their sports, plus compete in the LSC if invited. That's a pretty tall order for them.
    Last edited by johnintx; 02-02-2019 at 07:25 PM.

  14. Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    [QUOTE=johnintx;2347774]First-time poster on this board, long-time lurker here and on the GAC board.

    I remember when HSU dropped scholarship athletics and moved from D-I to D-III. This is when they added football.

    Not exactly. They had football as a division 1 school and dropped it in the 60s. Added it back in 1990 but they were NAIA until 1996 when they joined NCAA D3

  15. #35

    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    True. Both Trinity and Mary Hardin Baylor could successfully move to D2 and compete right away and both have the funds for the long haul as well as access more so than Hardin Simmons.

    But, neither school has shown any interest so it’s a mute point.

  16. Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    [QUOTE=LSCfan1;2347791]
    Quote Originally Posted by johnintx View Post
    First-time poster on this board, long-time lurker here and on the GAC board.

    I remember when HSU dropped scholarship athletics and moved from D-I to D-III. This is when they added football.

    Not exactly. They had football as a division 1 school and dropped it in the 60s. Added it back in 1990 but they were NAIA until 1996 when they joined NCAA D3
    True. I remember they played in the Border Conference with Texas Tech and Arizona State, among others. I neglected to mention that. Thanks!

  17. #37

    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnintx View Post
    First-time poster on this board, long-time lurker here and on the GAC board.

    I remember when HSU dropped scholarship athletics and moved from D-I to D-III. This is when they added football.

    Interesting rumor. Three generations of my wife's family attended Hardin-Simmons. I am an alum of Oklahoma Baptist, and our son currently attends there. We have another son graduating from high school this year. As an alum and as a parent, I'm familiar with how these schools operate.

    Yes, the sticker price is higher at a private school. But, depending on the school, they will offer a good chunk of financial aid to all freshmen based on test scores and GPA. Our son qualified for enough aid to bring the price of OBU down to the price of a public school in Texas. Hardin-Simmons was offering the same type of aid package for both of our sons. We have found that private schools offer much more aid, with the goal of being competitive on price with public schools. Our kids have average to above-average grades, with good test scores, and do not qualify for much (if any) in the way of aid to public schools in Texas.

    In light of HSU's situation, they recently cut programs and staff:

    https://www.reporternews.com/story/n...es/1652769002/

    https://www.baptiststandard.com/news...lty-and-staff/

    I'm not sure if HSU could pull off a move to D-II. They would have to invest in partial scholarships in all their sports, plus compete in the LSC if invited. That's a pretty tall order for them.
    Well that info put a sizeable dent in the rumor.

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    Default Re: Hardin Simmons to D2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Techster88 View Post
    True. Both Trinity and Mary Hardin Baylor could successfully move to D2 and compete right away and both have the funds for the long haul as well as access more so than Hardin Simmons.

    But, neither school has shown any interest so it’s a moot point.
    fixed it.

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