Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36

Thread: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Conway, AR
    Posts
    471
    Contribute to D2
    Rep Power
    3641

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herb Street View Post
    So if there is no evidence either way, how do we figure the competitive gap is closing? A decent hunch?
    Pretty much, I've tried to go back and watch old home video shot D2 games, and what we have today.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulerider View Post
    Pretty much, I've tried to go back and watch old home video shot D2 games, and what we have today.
    When were those old games played? Who were the teams?

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    19,343
    Rep Power
    640208

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    The money gap, just within the power 5 is huge.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulerider View Post
    It seems like over the past few seasons, that D2 Football keeps getting better and better. More competition, better players, bigger stadiums, bigger attendance, larger revenue. Is the gap closing between D2 and D1 FCS? Just throwing it out there.
    You must be watching different D2 games than I am. D2 FB is not getting better and better overall.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    3rd stall on the left
    Posts
    4,040
    Rep Power
    65470

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Predatory Primates View Post
    The money gap, just within the power 5 is huge.
    My prediction is that at least the B1G and the SEC will eventually leave the NCAA altogether and have their own deal. A sort of college "NFL" for all sports including the olympic sports with a blockbuster network deal ESPN-style. The B1G is in pursuit of Texas and OU and as the grant of rights for the Big 12 draws closer, expect that deal to happen. While that sounds bastard, the money for Texas and OU will be too good to pass up. Texas will concede their Longhorn Network but that has been a colossal failure for ESPN anyway so its future is already far from certain.

    Another thing impacting college sports is the new NBA developmental league for kids who don't want to go to college. This needed to happen. The top 35-40 basketball programs have become nothing but an NBA incubator and it is all kind of silly. Let's get these kids on with their lives and focus on the real business at hand which is higher education with some team sports mixed in.

    As time goes on, I am becoming more of a D3 fan. There are no D3 programs in Arkansas that I can watch, but I like the concept of students out there competing that are actually trying to get a solid education and not make the pros. There is a lot less show-boating and carrying on. It is much more pure, like college athletics used to be.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    19,343
    Rep Power
    640208

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Yeah I could see the 2 leaving the NCAA altogether, or maybe more than 2. I think the big 10 would have to drop a few to make that jump, though.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    12,953
    Rep Power
    228881

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Gap isn't closing. At BEST it is staying the same. DII team might get one or two true FCS quality players that for what ever reason decided to either go to a DII out of HS OR that transferred down to a DII (primarily because they weren't getting playing time at the FCS) and they can truly impact a DII's team. But don't mistake that improved paly with a DII being up to the level of all but the worst FCS teams.

    Now if the question is can a DII beat a FCS on a given day, I say yes. Lot of things have to break right for the DII and the FCS has to really be a bottom feeder or having a bad game, but yea...It can happen!

  8. #28

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    Gap isn't closing. At BEST it is staying the same. DII team might get one or two true FCS quality players that for what ever reason decided to either go to a DII out of HS OR that transferred down to a DII (primarily because they weren't getting playing time at the FCS) and they can truly impact a DII's team. But don't mistake that improved paly with a DII being up to the level of all but the worst FCS teams.

    Now if the question is can a DII beat a FCS on a given day, I say yes. Lot of things have to break right for the DII and the FCS has to really be a bottom feeder or having a bad game, but yea...It can happen!
    Solid statement. I would agree. However, I think D2 still gets a decent amount of D1 FBS transfers, and a good amount of D1 FCS Transfers.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    3rd stall on the left
    Posts
    4,040
    Rep Power
    65470

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulerider View Post
    Solid statement. I would agree. However, I think D2 still gets a decent amount of D1 FBS transfers, and a good amount of D1 FCS Transfers.
    In terms of FBS, many (most?) have had problems at their school and lost their scholarship. It would be interesting to know how many of these actually pan out in D2.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    2,966
    Blog Entries
    59
    Rep Power
    494779

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    Gap isn't closing. At BEST it is staying the same. DII team might get one or two true FCS quality players that for what ever reason decided to either go to a DII out of HS OR that transferred down to a DII (primarily because they weren't getting playing time at the FCS) and they can truly impact a DII's team. But don't mistake that improved paly with a DII being up to the level of all but the worst FCS teams.

    Now if the question is can a DII beat a FCS on a given day, I say yes. Lot of things have to break right for the DII and the FCS has to really be a bottom feeder or having a bad game, but yea...It can happen!
    I don’t disagree with this a whole lot. Which is why I don’t think th gap is closing. The top teams in D2 used to have a LOT of FCS fringe players, and it was one or two FBS-caliber players. As I said before, with more teams in D1, the talent isn’t quite where it used to be. As Taxman said, the quality of D2 at the top isn’t where it used to be. The 2016 NWMSU was the most dominant team in D2 history, and I think that was more an indictment on D2 than the greatness of the Bearcats. Some fans would argue that it wasn’t even NW’s best team. I certainly don’t consider it to be the best in history, and I can be prone to recently bias.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    674
    Blog Entries
    85
    Rep Power
    36748

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    This question seems to pop up every year...or a relative facsimile of it. Based on some of the responses within this thread, it does appear we are finally getting more folks to realize the reality that the gaps in talent between the divisions are indeed sizable...and will stay that way. Yes, a DII team can beat an FCS team once-in-a-while, but that isn't indicative of a "closing of the gap".

    The higher divisions have more scholarships...this is the most important (and arguably, the only true) difference between the divisions. Offering more scholarships doesn't ensure you more talent. It DOES ensure you much greater DEPTH. DEPTH may not manifest itself on a particular Saturday. Over eleven or twelve of them, it becomes BLINDINGLY evident. Depth alone will always keep the gap sizable.

    I agree with Ian and other experienced observers out here that the overall level of play in D2 isn't the same as it was ten+ years ago. I can't say for sure whether it might rebound some day or not. Most things are cyclical in some fashion, and different factors make things move/adjust/etc. The premise that the level of play is shrinking between FCS and D2 is a hard one for me to buy in general...add in that D2 seems to be down a bit, and said premise becomes even harder for me to buy.

    I also agree that how things are funded can impact the question at hand. It is undoubtedly worthy of a separate thread altogether, but in short I have hard time arguing that Herb isn't on to something with the premise that the P5 (or some assemblage thereof) will break off from the NCAA. Let's face it: The basketball tournament that is 75%+ theirs (and its TV rights) combined with their football games (and those TV rights) essentially pay for everything the NCAA does. If I'm a president of a well-branded and successful P5 school, I'm absolutely asking the question of why money we figure prominently in generating is helping fund things for other entities that don't add any return to the kitty. The landscape of college athletics is always open to change, but I think some of the shifts that are coming could be larger than any we have seen in our lifetimes.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    3rd stall on the left
    Posts
    4,040
    Rep Power
    65470

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Nicolette View Post

    The higher divisions have more scholarships...this is the most important (and arguably, the only true) difference between the divisions. Offering more scholarships doesn't ensure you more talent.
    I hear what you are saying, but even on the 1-deep, an FCS player is going to be a superior athlete most of the time, and so on up the food chain. I don’t think North Texas has many 1-deeps that could start for LSU or Penn State. There are exceptions of course. That’s how you have a handful of D2 players making NFL teams each year. They are the exceptions. One in literally hundreds.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    674
    Blog Entries
    85
    Rep Power
    36748

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herb Street View Post
    I hear what you are saying, but even on the 1-deep, an FCS player is going to be a superior athlete most of the time, and so on up the food chain. I don’t think North Texas has many 1-deeps that could start for LSU or Penn State. There are exceptions of course. That’s how you have a handful of D2 players making NFL teams each year. They are the exceptions. One in literally hundreds.
    Yikes...this is better as a live conversation than one where you have to type.

    My real point (that you cut off) is that DEPTH is the only truly guaranteed advantage offering more scholarships provides. Yes, you're not wrong that it nearly always means you're getting 'mostly' better athletes also...and that's part of where depth comes in. MORE of those good athletes.

    It has been my observation that more schollies doesn't necessarily mean that you'll always have a wide talent gap...you'll just have MORE kids on your roster with at least the baseline talent gap. And, in the context of individual head-to-head match-ups, that frontline gap may not be super large or noticeable...hence an 'any given Saturday' result. Over an entire season, the # of kids on the team with that baseline talent gap vs. a team(s) on the other end of that gap, and you'll see more predictable Saturday's than 'any givens'.

    In a way, your post proves my point. You're right...the # of frontliners at LSU is certainly greater than that of North Texas. BUT, North Texas is actually FBS and has 85 schollies...same as LSU. So, they BOTH have more schollies. They are both guaranteed depth. BUT, LSU will actually have even more elite talent. LSU has better tradition, better facilities, better recruiting, whatever. SO, North Texas has the 85 scholarships and their depth will certainly be better than that of an FCS...but even they can't get the same talent as LSU. Hence more scholarships means you'll have more kids with the baseline talent gap, or depth. More scholarships don't guarantee that you'll have more elite talent.

    My ultimate point is that trying to say "D2 had this record vs. FCS opponents over the last X-years, they are winning more and more of these games, the gap is closing" isn't an analysis I would make. My opinion is that perspective is looking at isolated incidences and a limited sample size, and isn't truly indicative of the broader truth.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by tony nicolette View Post
    yikes...this is better as a live conversation than one where you have to type.

    My real point (that you cut off) is that depth is the only truly guaranteed advantage offering more scholarships provides. Yes, you're not wrong that it nearly always means you're getting 'mostly' better athletes also...and that's part of where depth comes in. More of those good athletes.

    It has been my observation that more schollies doesn't necessarily mean that you'll always have a wide talent gap...you'll just have more kids on your roster with at least the baseline talent gap. And, in the context of individual head-to-head match-ups, that frontline gap may not be super large or noticeable...hence an 'any given saturday' result. Over an entire season, the # of kids on the team with that baseline talent gap vs. A team(s) on the other end of that gap, and you'll see more predictable saturday's than 'any givens'.

    In a way, your post proves my point. You're right...the # of frontliners at lsu is certainly greater than that of north texas. But, north texas is actually fbs and has 85 schollies...same as lsu. So, they both have more schollies. They are both guaranteed depth. But, lsu will actually have even more elite talent. Lsu has better tradition, better facilities, better recruiting, whatever. So, north texas has the 85 scholarships and their depth will certainly be better than that of an fcs...but even they can't get the same talent as lsu. Hence more scholarships means you'll have more kids with the baseline talent gap, or depth. More scholarships don't guarantee that you'll have more elite talent.

    My ultimate point is that trying to say "d2 had this record vs. Fcs opponents over the last x-years, they are winning more and more of these games, the gap is closing" isn't an analysis i would make. My opinion is that perspective is looking at isolated incidences and a limited sample size, and isn't truly indicative of the broader truth.
    great great analysis.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    12,953
    Rep Power
    228881

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Nicolette View Post
    Yikes...this is better as a live conversation than one where you have to type.

    My real point (that you cut off) is that DEPTH is the only truly guaranteed advantage offering more scholarships provides. Yes, you're not wrong that it nearly always means you're getting 'mostly' better athletes also...and that's part of where depth comes in. MORE of those good athletes.

    It has been my observation that more schollies doesn't necessarily mean that you'll always have a wide talent gap...you'll just have MORE kids on your roster with at least the baseline talent gap. And, in the context of individual head-to-head match-ups, that frontline gap may not be super large or noticeable...hence an 'any given Saturday' result. Over an entire season, the # of kids on the team with that baseline talent gap vs. a team(s) on the other end of that gap, and you'll see more predictable Saturday's than 'any givens'.

    In a way, your post proves my point. You're right...the # of frontliners at LSU is certainly greater than that of North Texas. BUT, North Texas is actually FBS and has 85 schollies...same as LSU. So, they BOTH have more schollies. They are both guaranteed depth. BUT, LSU will actually have even more elite talent. LSU has better tradition, better facilities, better recruiting, whatever. SO, North Texas has the 85 scholarships and their depth will certainly be better than that of an FCS...but even they can't get the same talent as LSU. Hence more scholarships means you'll have more kids with the baseline talent gap, or depth. More scholarships don't guarantee that you'll have more elite talent.

    My ultimate point is that trying to say "D2 had this record vs. FCS opponents over the last X-years, they are winning more and more of these games, the gap is closing" isn't an analysis I would make. My opinion is that perspective is looking at isolated incidences and a limited sample size, and isn't truly indicative of the broader truth.
    Depends on how a team allocates scholly $'s. I would also point out that beyond 5 star blue chip players (players that almost NO FCS or DII ever get's out of HS), incoming freshmen that get schollys are almost always going to set some level of partial scholly. FCS with more scholly $'s is going to be able to offer more money generally to these players than a DII. These incoming freshmen almost always start their college careers as "depth" and some work their way to starter. So DII's start at a disadvantage in total scholly $'s which impacts the amount they can give to incoming freshmen "depth" players which impacts the quality of players that ultimately work their way into the starting lineup. Scholly $'s have a snowball effect that go's beyond simply "depth."

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    674
    Blog Entries
    85
    Rep Power
    36748

    Default Re: Is the gap closing between D1 FCS Football and D2 Football?

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    Depends on how a team allocates scholly $'s. I would also point out that beyond 5 star blue chip players (players that almost NO FCS or DII ever get's out of HS), incoming freshmen that get schollys are almost always going to set some level of partial scholly. FCS with more scholly $'s is going to be able to offer more money generally to these players than a DII. These incoming freshmen almost always start their college careers as "depth" and some work their way to starter. So DII's start at a disadvantage in total scholly $'s which impacts the amount they can give to incoming freshmen "depth" players which impacts the quality of players that ultimately work their way into the starting lineup. Scholly $'s have a snowball effect that go's beyond simply "depth."
    Of course they do. But you too seem to be missing my point...depth is the only thing that those additional schollies GUARANTEE. They do NOT guarantee a bevy of elite talent. AND, that depth is what separates the divisions, particularly over the course of an entire season (aka, a larger sample size).

    And, your analysis on the progression of those dollars and players is totally accurate. What's funny is that it too helps bolster my point that the gap between the divisions is NOT closing.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •