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Thread: At last it's over!

  1. #1
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    Default At last it's over!

    Another subpar season is over. The WL football program is a train wreck. When is the administration going to take action?

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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Administration take action...Uhhhhhh...NEVER! I'm hopeful that the hiring of Kellar signaled that this was Wailae last season...but given his refusal to leave in the past and leaderships refusal to fire him, I'm not optimistic.

    If we only had air conditioning in all the dorms and an engineering program, maybe we would be able to recruit better...
    Last edited by boatcapt; 11-09-2018 at 03:55 PM.

  3. Default Re: At last it's over!

    How is recruiting going boat? Heard anything in this area? Not real impressed with the offense, hate to see qb’s having to run the ball and get banged up.

  4. Default Re: At last it's over!

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticCoach View Post
    How is recruiting going boat? Heard anything in this area? Not real impressed with the offense, hate to see qb’s having to run the ball and get banged up.
    When you have an offensive line as bad as WL’s you have to have a second option to run the ball. They are not going to line up and just push anyone, so you have to go with multiple run options to slow the defense down.
    I am now of the mindset that the HC has to go. The new OC is in place as the “HC in waiting” and has been successful, just not sure the school can do without Gary West’s money. If the HC goes, so does West’s money.

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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Heaven ......come on down! Concerning Gary West and his support, why would he want to continue to support a losing program. You would think he would want a successful program, especially since the stadium has his name. Certainly nobody is running RW out. He has more than ample time to turn this program around but the job just isn't getting done. What"s the average attendance, less than 500 people per game?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    I don't think West stops donating if (and it appears to be a BIG if.) Wiaialae leaves. West is a business man and understands the difference between success and failure. I would think he also has to understand when a boss has been given every opportunity to succeed and still fails. Clearly WLU football is not succeeding by almost any metric and the boss who has lead this march to failure is the current HC.

    The real question is West a "fan" of WLU football or is he a "fan" of Wiaialae?

    As for recruiting, I've given up referring players to WLU because it doesn't do any good. They never even contacted the players I refered even though most of those players really wanted to at least hear what WLU had to offer. Funny that most of the players I tried to refer to WLU ended up going to other DII's in the WVIAC, MEC and PSAC with most of those eventually becoming starters and quite a few earning conference and regional honors. I've heard the same from others who have tried to refer players to WLU including former players and HS head coaches. Bottom line is WLU just isn't interested in hearing about any players from anyone outside of "their" recruiting connections. Counter that with WLU basketball. I didn't really do basketball scouting but there were a couple of times HS players would contact me and ask if I could get them in contact with WLU. I sent Coach Crutch and Ben H an email with the players highlight link and on BOTH occasions I heard back from Ben within 30 minutes asking for the kids cell phone # and asking me to tell the kid that he would be calling them within the next hour. Neither player went to WLU (one went to a low level D1 and the other was an academic basket case) but the difference between the football and basketball team response was striking...as is the on field/court difference in success between the two programs.

    QB's running. I'm OK with it as long as it is in small, planned doses. Don't like it when the QB is your leading rusher OR if he runs so much because the line is giving him almost no cover. Sadly, we seem to be a hybrid of a QB who is going to be one of our leading PLANNED runners AND a QB who has to run because the OL isn't giving him a chance to set and throw from the pocket. Ideally I'd be OK with 7 or 8 planned QB runs and 3 or 4 scramble runs per game.
    Last edited by boatcapt; 11-12-2018 at 07:41 AM.

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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Out of curiosity, what has changed over the last decade when West Liberty had great success under Wailae? Was it a great coordinator who left? Zach Amedro?

  8. Default Re: At last it's over!

    Gary West is a Waialae fan, don’t ever question that. If Waialae goes, ALL athletic money from West goes as well. He may still donate some to the academic side, but he will cut off all athletic money. No question.
    As far as when they had success, it was because they had a nucleus of great players. The same OC in 09 and 10 when they 19-5 as when they won less than 3 games a year until he was fired after the ‘14 or ‘15 season. Great players, not a great OC. Recruiting starts with the HC and who he tells the assistants he likes and doesn’t like.

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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    I think the downward spiral started Amedro's last year. WLU had graduated quite a few quality players after his junior year and they went after the quick fix via JUCO's. It worked a little that year and WLU went 7-3. After Amedro left, they went whole hog chasing JUCO's for several years with not very good results. Also had a string of bad QB's and particularly at that time, the offense revolved around the QB. Seems like during the time we were chasing JUCO's, the recruiting process changed. WLU's staff never embrassed the new recruiting reality that almost requires the constant use of social media to get your program in the face of recruits and continually lets interested players that you LOVE them. It wasn't until this year that any of the football coaches had any social media presence and even now, it's only a couple (Kellar, Hill and Monteroso). Also, WLU had traditionally pulled a lot of quality players from Ohio...over the years that area has seen the addition of a lot of DII programs which have pulled their share of players who probably would have strongly considered WLU in the past. WLU seems to have refused to look in new areas to find recruits. In short, they made bad recruiting decisions and compounded those by a total unwillingness to change and adapt.

    There are a number of other issues that have contributed to them becoming so very, very bad but I think they could have overcome those with a solid recruiting program. The difference between how WLU does recruiting and how successful programs do recruiting is shocking. As HH said, it begins and ends with the HC.

    My prediction is that WJU, Frostburg and UNC-P will all have winning seasons before WLU does if WLU doesn't replace their HC.
    Last edited by boatcapt; 11-13-2018 at 09:41 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Desperate times call for desperate measures.

    WLU football should go to "money ball". Attendance would probably increase due to its uniqueness.

    Bring in Kevin Kelly of Pulaski Academy as a consultant to teach them their unique style that has a solid statistical foundation (according to MIT and USC statisticians) at high school, college and NFL.

    If the Atlanta Falcons are consulting with him that is good enough for me.

    Despite playing two classes above their enrollment, Pulaski Academy is going for their 5th straight Arkansas state title.

    Strategy is to maximize possessions and points scored based on data metrics.
    1. They never punt.
    2. They always onside kick. Have at least 10 onside kick plays
    3. Typically go for 2 point conversions.
    4. Spread the field and use numerous plays that confuse the opponent. They even use a rugby lateral after catching a pass to keep defenses from swarming to ball
    5. Never put anyone back to field punts - eliminates turnover possibility. It is hilarious for punt coverage team to be sprinting down the field looking for the returner that is not there!
    6. Spread offense with no huddle

    You can watch them on youtube.
    1st playoff game was 50-7 - AT HALFTIME. Mercy rule went into effect with continuous running clock when margin is 35 or more. Most of their regular season games invoked the mercy rule.

  11. Default Re: At last it's over!

    When ANYONE at the college or NFL level actually start doing that, let me know. Consulting with someone is a long way from actually doing it.
    BTW - teams watch film of opponents. Highly doubt that teams run down the field and are “surprised” not to see a returner when he wasn’t there in the 3-4 previous game tapes they had already seen. Sounds like Harry High School bu##sh#t to me.

  12. #12

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    The special teams angle is interesting.

    A coach in the PSAC told me he closes his eyes on every punt -- when his team is punting and returning. There's just so much that can go wrong.

    The majority of 'good returns' always seem to get a flag on the field. You risk the botched catch/fumble -- huge momentum reverse. You risk your player getting blown up/injured. Punt return averages are typically very minimal for the risk. Other players on the return team tend to get injured a lot due to the chaos that ensues -- special teams are full of the 'LIT AF' types all trying to make a highlight.

    A positive to this theory is most punters at the D2 level aren't really that good. For every punt they bomb several others get shanked. With nobody back it adds a little more pressure to their already fragile mindset. The more they rush the punt often times the more they kick it 45 degrees out of bounds.



    There's a high school in Pittsburgh -- a powerhouse program -- Clairton ... they never punt. You can argue the risk in the snap. The punters aren't that good so the net is weak anyway.


    Obviously there's a different side to these theories but it is an interesting concept.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    I'm not a full proponent of the no punt, gunslinging, statistics driven football but I do think that many coaches are lazy/uninformed when it comes to the edges they can get by taking educated chances. They tend to punt in certain situations because that's what they always have done since they learned how to be a coach back in the day...no thought given to "maybe I can get an edge by going for it a lot more." I read some interesting papers a couple years back about the advantage coaches can get through additional possessions by proper game management and the effect these additional possessions had on game score. They were related to basketball but the general premiss I think would be the same for football.

    But this stuff is kind of hard for coaches to understand so they generally default what they learned from their mentor coach back in the 70's or 80's.

    A team going all in on the Pulaski Academy approach would need to win from game one or the HC would probably be looking for a job pretty quickly. The experts in the media and the old school alumni base would barbeque him every time he lost a game because of his "trick plays" and 'violating conventional wisdom."

    But hey...We were 3-7 and in the midst of a LOOOONNNNGGGG slide and seem to have a HC that is bullet proof so I say, why not. But it's just not going to happen!!!
    Last edited by boatcapt; 11-14-2018 at 10:19 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Quote Originally Posted by HeavenontheHill View Post
    When ANYONE at the college or NFL level actually start doing that, let me know. Consulting with someone is a long way from actually doing it.
    BTW - teams watch film of opponents. Highly doubt that teams run down the field and are “surprised” not to see a returner when he wasn’t there in the 3-4 previous game tapes they had already seen. Sounds like Harry High School bu##sh#t to me.
    I watch them every week live on youtube. Announcers commented on punt coverage behavior. It was 3 or 4 games ago and probably due to habit.
    If u want to verify u can watch the games.

    I was skeptical too of the efficacy until I read the explanations. Folks are naturally resistant to change even when faced with evidence that refute their beliefs. Remember folks persecuted scientists who thought earth revolved around the sun lol

    Most WL has to lose by adopting this approach is 3 games LOL


    I like teams that challenge conventional wisdom based on intellect- that is why I am intrigued by WL basketball and Pulaski academy football.
    Last edited by Columbuseer; 11-16-2018 at 11:47 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Boat,
    You nailed the reason why it isn't done- boosters and job security due to ignorance and "we've always done that way" culture.


    You better also be a great x and o coach to maintain possession.

    I was so happy when wvu went for 2 against texas. Imho Having Grier with one play needing 3 yards for victory was clearly the lowest risk alternative but it requires a secure coach who knows the game.

    The ignorance of analysts was evident when they framed it as a gutsy call.
    - It was an intelligent decision.
    Last edited by Columbuseer; 11-16-2018 at 11:36 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    The special teams angle is interesting.

    A coach in the PSAC told me he closes his eyes on every punt -- when his team is punting and returning. There's just so much that can go wrong.

    The majority of 'good returns' always seem to get a flag on the field. You risk the botched catch/fumble -- huge momentum reverse. You risk your player getting blown up/injured. Punt return averages are typically very minimal for the risk. Other players on the return team tend to get injured a lot due to the chaos that ensues -- special teams are full of the 'LIT AF' types all trying to make a highlight.

    A positive to this theory is most punters at the D2 level aren't really that good. For every punt they bomb several others get shanked. With nobody back it adds a little more pressure to their already fragile mindset. The more they rush the punt often times the more they kick it 45 degrees out of bounds.



    There's a high school in Pittsburgh -- a powerhouse program -- Clairton ... they never punt. You can argue the risk in the snap. The punters aren't that good so the net is weak anyway.


    Obviously there's a different side to these theories but it is an interesting concept.
    You have summarized the basic rationale for not punting. i initially struggled with the idea of not punting on 4th and 7 from your own 10 yard line.

    They also said that when you punt from deep in your own territory the opponent gets an average of 3 or 4 points due to short field. Better to try to keep possession by going for it on 4th down. Kelly has given talks at MIT and coaches clinics if folks want to understand the risk/reward discussion.

    Btw Pulaski academy won second round game against McClellan 58-7. Mercy rule in effect for much of second half. Surprising because McClellan met them in finals 2 of last 3 years.

  17. #17

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Do you all think we are taking full advantage of recruiting the OVAC? I know we usually get a few guys from there but they don’t seem to be the top tier guys. Some go D1 so you can’t compete with that but there’s a lot of high quality D2 types. Bit of a down year this season for the conference but still some good players we could use. Seems like a lot of them go to PA schools. I know a coupe transferred in this year and immediately contributed. That could be one issue for WL but by no means do I think we should only recruit the immediate surrounding areas. One thing I do notice is we get a lot of recruits from totally random areas around the country. Maybe narrow it down a little more? Hard to keep a bunch of freshman from Florida and California that far away from home at a place like WL.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Quote Originally Posted by Layton View Post
    Do you all think we are taking full advantage of recruiting the OVAC? I know we usually get a few guys from there but they don’t seem to be the top tier guys. Some go D1 so you can’t compete with that but there’s a lot of high quality D2 types. Bit of a down year this season for the conference but still some good players we could use. Seems like a lot of them go to PA schools. I know a coupe transferred in this year and immediately contributed. That could be one issue for WL but by no means do I think we should only recruit the immediate surrounding areas. One thing I do notice is we get a lot of recruits from totally random areas around the country. Maybe narrow it down a little more? Hard to keep a bunch of freshman from Florida and California that far away from home at a place like WL.
    At this point, I just don't know. Only consistent thing I've heard from multiple people in the know is the social media use, the failure to contact players, the failure to consider recruits referred to them by reputable sources and the failure to develop relationships with any new HC's. What I've heard, and this is from a couple of years ago so it may have changed, is that they don't actively recruit Florida and California (i.e. send coaches to those states to recruit or visit prospects). What they get are a lot of players from those two places that contact them and they are evaluated against other players. As the story went, they gave scholarships to the best players in each position group without regard to were they were from. I generally agree with the philosophy of giving schollys to the best available players. That said, if two players grade out the same and one is local and one is from Florida, you offer the local player first.

  19. #19

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    At this point, I just don't know. Only consistent thing I've heard from multiple people in the know is the social media use, the failure to contact players, the failure to consider recruits referred to them by reputable sources and the failure to develop relationships with any new HC's. What I've heard, and this is from a couple of years ago so it may have changed, is that they don't actively recruit Florida and California (i.e. send coaches to those states to recruit or visit prospects). What they get are a lot of players from those two places that contact them and they are evaluated against other players. As the story went, they gave scholarships to the best players in each position group without regard to were they were from. I generally agree with the philosophy of giving schollys to the best available players. That said, if two players grade out the same and one is local and one is from Florida, you offer the local player first.
    Are they bringing the kids to campus first or are they seeing it on the day they arrive? What is the retention rate for these CA and FLA players? How the overall program retention?

  20. #20

    Default Re: At last it's over!

    Yea I’ve touched on this many times but their social media presence is really weak. Not many coaches on it from what I can tell and if they are they aren’t very active. At least I can say I contributed a little bit to the program not that it really improved anything though. I don’t want to say anything bad about anyone now though for obvious reasons.

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