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Thread: Dixie State considering a move to D1

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Hey sorry I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing at the WAC and any of those schools that think they're "D1."
    No worries, I understood.

    Interesting, isn't it, how the feasibility studies never look at the effects moving up has on won/loss and the direct correlation to money from donors. When you are winning, the money flows.

    I did not study Dixie's report closely, but I did not see anything about how teams like UNC make this work. But they seem to think that $12 million would be enough...

  2. #22

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Over on the Big Sky Conference message board, some Bear fans post messages opining that UNC made a serious mistake moving to the FCS level. Many wish they were back at the DII level. Being the conference doormat is not fun.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    The only school that has made some noises about moving up is Mesa. That's what player's parents told me a while back. Every other team including CSUP and Mines are absolutely happy to play at the DII level, where they belong. Much better to be a big fish in a small RMAC pond, than to be a small fish in a big FCS pond.
    Even bigger point is this.....

    If you spent $11 million more and got the publicity of Alabama, then it would probably be worth it. But only North Dakota State really gets any national play about their program and a big part of that is because of Carson Wentz and because they are always a "candidate" to move to the FBS.

    Just because you "move up" doesn't mean you get a lot more publicity. I think the Frontier schools should move up to join with the GNAC, but I respect their cautious attitude about it because it doesn't bring TONS more publicity playing Central Washington than it does playing Montana State Northern. Yes, it's more, but they have to weigh the costs versus the gains. None of the current WAC schools move the needle.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Over on the Big Sky Conference message board, some Bear fans post messages opining that UNC made a serious mistake moving to the FCS level. Many wish they were back at the DII level. Being the conference doormat is not fun.
    They could have a great rivalry with Pueblo.

    They were a SCARY team in D2.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    There are always a few psychological phenomenons that happen when these moves are speculated.

    Risky Shift Phenomenon

    Description: When people are in groups, they make decision about risk differently from when they are alone. In the group, they are likely to make riskier decisions, as the shared risk makes the individual risk less.

    A lot of the NCC schools were affected by this.

    Reciprocal Liking

    Although it seems too simple to be true, research in psychology has shown time and again that we like people who like us. In a series of clever studies, the power of what’s called “reciprocal liking” has proven itself.

    This would apply to a school like Dixie State. No AD in his or her right mind thinks "I want to be part of the WAC." But when the WAC says, "we think you're a D1 school, we like you, you should join us" it kick starts reciprocal liking.

    Jealousy and Inferiority

    I can't find a perfect definition online, but you all have seen this happen time and time again on this board.

    Let's say Pittsburg State gets an invite from the Missouri Valley Conference and it's announced that PSU is hiring a consulting company. Immediately, Central Missouri fans wonder why they didn't get the invite, list reasons why they are as good a candidate or better than Pitt State, and start to complain to their AD that they should be D1 as well.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by whodat View Post
    No doubt.

    That said, the WAC and Dixie would not be saying and doing these things unless some interest has been expressed by other schools. I can't see NMSU moving down, but I could see CWU, Dixie, Mesa, CSUP, possibly Mines, Asuza all moving up. And maybe this is the opening for Grand Canyon to start football, as they wanted a couple of years ago. Maybe even a couple of Big Sky teams move out.

    Where there is smoke, there is fire....
    There is ZERO chance that CWU will move up. There is close to 0% chance CWU would look at moving up.

    At a minimum, CWU would have to increase its athletic budget nearly 3x,and that is not considering the upgrade in facilities.
    Last edited by Runnin' Cat; 10-31-2018 at 12:06 PM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Even bigger point is this.....

    If you spent $11 million more and got the publicity of Alabama, then it would probably be worth it. But only North Dakota State really gets any national play about their program and a big part of that is because of Carson Wentz and because they are always a "candidate" to move to the FBS.

    Just because you "move up" doesn't mean you get a lot more publicity. I think the Frontier schools should move up to join with the GNAC, but I respect their cautious attitude about it because it doesn't bring TONS more publicity playing Central Washington than it does playing Montana State Northern. Yes, it's more, but they have to weigh the costs versus the gains. None of the current WAC schools move the needle.
    One big consideration for moving from the NAIA is that the NCAA is richer and post season costs are covered. Carroll drops a lot of dough in NAIA championships travel.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    They could have a great rivalry with Pueblo.

    They were a SCARY team in D2.

    UNC doesn't scare anybody these days, except distraught Bear fans. That program has been in disarray for some time. CSUP recruits Colorado much better than UNC. CSUP would beat UNC regularly if the two teams played annually. The Mines would beat the Bears also. UNC won't play top level RMAC teams like it did in the past. We all know why ...

  9. #29

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by North Ala Screwdriver View Post
    A few things about this that make sense:

    1) Most of the current WAC schools are sitting ducks for other conferences to expand, so for them, timing and geography are both critical for the conference to continue to exist.
    2) Football also adds to conference stability by making the stakes much higher for schools to realign. Just on name recognition, they could probably pull in several FCS schools instantly.
    3) Dixie is one of the fastest growing schools in the fastest growing metro area in the country. Long term, they're expected to be a campus of 20k in a city of 500k. Think that's one of the keys to getting its budget where it needs to be.
    4) Dixie also needs a new sponsor for its stadium, and the value of those naming rights go up in this scenario.
    5) MSU Denver (RMAC non-football) has also released an exploration of joining the WAC. Easy to assume those aren't the only two.
    https://roadrunnersathletics.com/new...ity-study.aspx
    6) At the FCS conference level, men's basketball drives revenue, not football. Since the last big split, the WAC hasn't won an NCAA tourney game and has gotten one bid per year. Both of these schools have healthy basketball programs.
    7) Conferences also look for metro areas to bump the value of broadcast rights. That also works in MSUD's favor, as well as Dixie, long-term. Dixie could host a conference tourney a couple hours away in Vegas
    8) This might be the opportunity that some of the wannabe FCS schools in the Lone Star have been waiting for.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by ccmoney8 View Post
    A few things about this that make sense:

    1) Most of the current WAC schools are sitting ducks for other conferences to expand, so for them, timing and geography are both critical for the conference to continue to exist.
    2) Football also adds to conference stability by making the stakes much higher for schools to realign. Just on name recognition, they could probably pull in several FCS schools instantly.
    3) Dixie is one of the fastest growing schools in the fastest growing metro area in the country. Long term, they're expected to be a campus of 20k in a city of 500k. Think that's one of the keys to getting its budget where it needs to be.
    4) Dixie also needs a new sponsor for its stadium, and the value of those naming rights go up in this scenario.
    5) MSU Denver (RMAC non-football) has also released an exploration of joining the WAC. Easy to assume those aren't the only two.
    https://roadrunnersathletics.com/new...ity-study.aspx
    6) At the FCS conference level, men's basketball drives revenue, not football. Since the last big split, the WAC hasn't won an NCAA tourney game and has gotten one bid per year. Both of these schools have healthy basketball programs.
    7) Conferences also look for metro areas to bump the value of broadcast rights. That also works in MSUD's favor, as well as Dixie, long-term. Dixie could host a conference tourney a couple hours away in Vegas
    8) This might be the opportunity that some of the wannabe FCS schools in the Lone Star have been waiting for.
    To convert point 6) to $s:

    https://herosports.com/ncaa-tourname...ball-fund-a7a7

    The WAC received a $1,711,784.00 payout in 2017 for the D1 men's basketball tournament. That is roughly what the conference has earned each of the last few years due to playing only one game. The 8 WAC schools get an equal share (if the WAC uses this method) of $213,973 per year and with 9 schools the share drops to $190,198 per year. If I'm not missing something, that doesn't seem to be much revenue for the enormous expense of being a D1 program. It's barely enough to cover the costs of scholarships for the basketball team and reclassifying schools don't see any of that money.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech Boys View Post
    To convert point 6) to $s:

    https://herosports.com/ncaa-tourname...ball-fund-a7a7

    The WAC received a $1,711,784.00 payout in 2017 for the D1 men's basketball tournament. That is roughly what the conference has earned each of the last few years due to playing only one game. The 8 WAC schools get an equal share (if the WAC uses this method) of $213,973 per year and with 9 schools the share drops to $190,198 per year. If I'm not missing something, that doesn't seem to be much revenue for the enormous expense of being a D1 program. It's barely enough to cover the costs of scholarships for the basketball team and reclassifying schools don't see any of that money.
    Correct, the potential value added of having another win or two in the NCAAT isn't a motivator for the schools to join. They still have to raise the funds to run their own programs. But it's a motivator for which schools the conference might select.

    Also, NCAA revenue sharing would only be one source of revenue. Others include broadcast and promotional rights at conference tournaments.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Risky Shift Phenomenon

    Description: When people are in groups, they make decision about risk differently from when they are alone. In the group, they are likely to make riskier decisions, as the shared risk makes the individual risk less.

    A lot of the NCC schools were affected by this.
    To use a non-football example, this is basically how the PacWest assumed its current form. At the start of the last decade, the old Golden State Athletic Conference (NAIA) was rumored to be looking at moving up to D2 en masse. Westmont was emphatically against it and remained with the schools that didn't have enough sports or money to realistically make the jump. Cal Baptist was all for it (they were planning on going D1 sooner or later and now have). Azusa Pacific, Fresno Pacific and Point Loma decided to make the move together, and Concordia-Irvine and Biola followed within a couple of years.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    There are always a few psychological phenomenons that happen when these moves are speculated.

    Risky Shift Phenomenon

    Description: When people are in groups, they make decision about risk differently from when they are alone. In the group, they are likely to make riskier decisions, as the shared risk makes the individual risk less.

    A lot of the NCC schools were affected by this.

    Reciprocal Liking

    Although it seems too simple to be true, research in psychology has shown time and again that we like people who like us. In a series of clever studies, the power of what’s called “reciprocal liking” has proven itself.

    This would apply to a school like Dixie State. No AD in his or her right mind thinks "I want to be part of the WAC." But when the WAC says, "we think you're a D1 school, we like you, you should join us" it kick starts reciprocal liking.

    Jealousy and Inferiority

    I can't find a perfect definition online, but you all have seen this happen time and time again on this board.

    Let's say Pittsburg State gets an invite from the Missouri Valley Conference and it's announced that PSU is hiring a consulting company. Immediately, Central Missouri fans wonder why they didn't get the invite, list reasons why they are as good a candidate or better than Pitt State, and start to complain to their AD that they should be D1 as well.
    Excellent points for a D2 school to consider before making the leap.

    The problem here the WAC is in crazy desperation mode and is telling all perspectives what they want to hear.

    But, I could see the WAC cobbling together together a FCS conference with Tarleton, Dixie State, and a UTRGV start up. You only need 6 for an automatic bid into playoffs. If say, WT also made the jump, then weaker FCS schools like S. Utah and N Colo joined as football only this could be reality. The travel for Texas Colorado & Utah Conference isn’t a killer. Plus, the WAC uses a common school for several to meet at to cut travel costs for other sports.

    I may have the schools wrong, but this isn’t as far fetched as first perceived.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Techster88 View Post
    Excellent points for a D2 school to consider before making the leap.

    The problem here the WAC is in crazy desperation mode and is telling all perspectives what they want to hear.

    But, I could see the WAC cobbling together together a FCS conference with Tarleton, Dixie State, and a UTRGV start up. You only need 6 for an automatic bid into playoffs. If say, WT also made the jump, then weaker FCS schools like S. Utah and N Colo joined as football only this could be reality. The travel for Texas Colorado & Utah Conference isn’t a killer. Plus, the WAC uses a common school for several to meet at to cut travel costs for other sports.

    I may have the schools wrong, but this isn’t as far fetched as first perceived.
    There are way too many ifs in this scenario....plus....

    Could you please look up the requirements for a conference? They have to have a certain number of current D1 schools to be eligible for automatic births. Could you find what that number/ratio is?

  15. #35

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    There are way too many ifs in this scenario....plus....

    Could you please look up the requirements for a conference? They have to have a certain number of current D1 schools to be eligible for automatic births. Could you find what that number/ratio is?

    So to be eligible for an automatic bid, and you still may not get one, you must have 6 of the same D-I members for 2 years straight. Go below 6, you are ineligible and start over. Being eligible doesn't mean you'll receive one though.

    NCAA has waived some of these rules for the WAC before and if they work closely with the NCAA and its seen as viable who knows what may or may not happen. Nothing is etched in stone

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    UNC doesn't scare anybody these days, except distraught Bear fans. That program has been in disarray for some time. CSUP recruits Colorado much better than UNC. CSUP would beat UNC regularly if the two teams played annually. The Mines would beat the Bears also. UNC won't play top level RMAC teams like it did in the past. We all know why ...
    Heck Lindenwood beat them on their home field in their first year in D2 a few years ago. Crazy how that once proud program fell completely off the map.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by ccmoney8 View Post
    Correct, the potential value added of having another win or two in the NCAAT isn't a motivator for the schools to join. They still have to raise the funds to run their own programs. But it's a motivator for which schools the conference might select.

    Also, NCAA revenue sharing would only be one source of revenue. Others include broadcast and promotional rights at conference tournaments.
    What is the dollar amount on those broadcast and promotional rights? It can't be all that much. The only TV ads I have seen for the WAC was when I was watching New Mexico State football games from the time they were a Sun Belt affiliate. I live 40 miles from the WAC office (39 of those miles are on I25) and have driven by the office so many times I'm not going to bother to count and yet I still have to look up the WAC members. It has been nearly 20 years since anyone, outside of the WAC office, here in Colorado has given the WAC much more than a casual glance.

    Dixie State is going to have to at least double their budget and raise funds for the reclassifying process. Where is that money going to come from cause I'm pretty sure they will have to have the money first. It's also a huge gamble on a ship-load of "IFs" when it comes to the WAC getting enough schools to join for football. The feasibility study might say DSU can go D1 but can that study guarantee the money will be raised or 5 other football teams will join the WAC?

    If Dixie State or any other school goes D1 then good for them. I just don't see the charm in taking on all the added expenses to be just as much a nobody in D1 as we are now in D2 along with no chance ever to win a national title.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Techster88 View Post
    Excellent points for a D2 school to consider before making the leap.

    The problem here the WAC is in crazy desperation mode and is telling all perspectives what they want to hear.

    But, I could see the WAC cobbling together together a FCS conference with Tarleton, Dixie State, and a UTRGV start up. You only need 6 for an automatic bid into playoffs. If say, WT also made the jump, then weaker FCS schools like S. Utah and N Colo joined as football only this could be reality. The travel for Texas Colorado & Utah Conference isn’t a killer. Plus, the WAC uses a common school for several to meet at to cut travel costs for other sports.

    I may have the schools wrong, but this isn’t as far fetched as first perceived.
    This is exactly the sort of scenario I imagined as well. S. Utah and N. Colo., Dixie, maybe they rope CMU in... They are clearly trying to rebrand as a conference centralized around the Rockies.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by ccmoney8 View Post
    This is exactly the sort of scenario I imagined as well. S. Utah and N. Colo., Dixie, maybe they rope CMU in... They are clearly trying to rebrand as a conference centralized around the Rockies.

    Don't see why S. Utah and UNC would leave the Big Sky Conference, a well established conference, to join an obvious goat rope. The WAC needs more than rebranding. It needs to stop pretending it's a real DI conference.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Dixie State considering a move to D1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Don't see why S. Utah and UNC would leave the Big Sky Conference, a well established conference, to join an obvious goat rope. The WAC needs more than rebranding. It needs to stop pretending it's a real DI conference.
    I wonder if the WAC's "feasibility study" to begin FCS football was done by the same people who did the Dixie study?

    I read somewhere (which I can longer find) a person say that this is more about realigning the Southland, Big Sky, and one other I can't remember, and that the WAC is actually being used as a false front for those 3 conferences. The theory being that there are schools that want to jump to FBS inside of these conferences, along with some desired geographical consolidation, so they are looking for options to backfill members. Tarleton is another school looking to move, but desires to be in the Southland.

    So, perhaps this is all a mirage to smoke out other D2 schools who want to move up, or WAC schools thinking about adding football. Maybe the WAC wants to just focus primarily on B-ball (thus, the reason Metro State is talking to them), and this is all a multi-conference coordinated effort looking to the future?

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