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Thread: Joining leagues

  1. #1
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    Default Joining leagues

    First off, thanks Brandon for posting that you can't start the NCAA in D-1. I thought you could start in FCS, but you can't do that.

    Also, you can't just join a league because you want to. A couple years ago (mostly on the hoops board) they said WWU was going D-1 in hoops. I asked the question: "Which league are they joining?" It wasn't the WCC (private schools only), the Big Sky (have to have football), the Big West (which wants mostly California-only schools), or the WAC. Someone came up with the Great West, which no longer exists.

    WWU -- like college hockey -- doesn't move the needle anywhere. They're in a remote town with a tiny gym and don't draw that well by D-1 standards. Why would a California school sign off on that? Heck, a perfect fit for the WCC is Seattle U., and that conference (mostly Gonzaga) doesn't want them in, so they're in the far-flung WAC.

    If you want to move to something other than the 50-team RMAC, you have to have things in place: D-1 facilities, D-1 attendance, D-1 budget, etc. The NCAA by allowing 355 hoop teams -- mostly D-1annabees, who have no business playing D-1 -- has diluted their product and made everyone think they can be D-1. Heck, half the Big Sky shouldn't be D-1.

    * Speaking of the Big Sky, CWU is playing the University of Idaho next year in Moscow. I like CWU's chances.

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    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by tsull View Post
    First off, thanks Brandon for posting that you can't start the NCAA in D-1. I thought you could start in FCS, but you can't do that.

    Also, you can't just join a league because you want to. A couple years ago (mostly on the hoops board) they said WWU was going D-1 in hoops. I asked the question: "Which league are they joining?" It wasn't the WCC (private schools only), the Big Sky (have to have football), the Big West (which wants mostly California-only schools), or the WAC. Someone came up with the Great West, which no longer exists.

    WWU -- like college hockey -- doesn't move the needle anywhere. They're in a remote town with a tiny gym and don't draw that well by D-1 standards. Why would a California school sign off on that? Heck, a perfect fit for the WCC is Seattle U., and that conference (mostly Gonzaga) doesn't want them in, so they're in the far-flung WAC.

    If you want to move to something other than the 50-team RMAC, you have to have things in place: D-1 facilities, D-1 attendance, D-1 budget, etc. The NCAA by allowing 355 hoop teams -- mostly D-1annabees, who have no business playing D-1 -- has diluted their product and made everyone think they can be D-1. Heck, half the Big Sky shouldn't be D-1.

    * Speaking of the Big Sky, CWU is playing the University of Idaho next year in Moscow. I like CWU's chances.
    Why is CWU all of the sudden playing FCS teams? Desperate for money? Can’t find OOC game? Trying to move up to D1? Because playing EWU will likely cost them the postseason and perhaps in the future if they choose to play money games...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by Twincitiesmav View Post
    Why is CWU all of the sudden playing FCS teams? Desperate for money? Can’t find OOC game? Trying to move up to D1? Because playing EWU will likely cost them the postseason and perhaps in the future if they choose to play money games...
    They almost beat a great Montana team a decade or so ago, maybe less than a decade. I believe a late FG or late missed FG did them in. Montana I think played for the national title that year. WOU has played EWU (twice), Portland State, Montana State, and Sac State (a win on the road for WOU) over the years.

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    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by Twincitiesmav View Post
    Why is CWU all of the sudden playing FCS teams? Desperate for money? Can’t find OOC game? Trying to move up to D1? Because playing EWU will likely cost them the postseason and perhaps in the future if they choose to play money games...
    I wouldn't be surprised if it were that OOC opponents were hard to find. I know in 2014 CSU Pueblo ended up playing Sam Houston after Angelo State backed out of the Colorado half of a home and home and no D2 team wanted the game. It was kinda of nice though. It cost us a home game, but we ended up kicking the crap out of an FCS semi-finalist.

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    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by Twincitiesmav View Post
    Why is CWU all of the sudden playing FCS teams? Desperate for money? Can’t find OOC game? Trying to move up to D1? Because playing EWU will likely cost them the postseason and perhaps in the future if they choose to play money games...
    I'll take out your second question, last year during the APU game which was on ESPN3 they mentioned an actual surplus of money with an increase in students which is being used on 3 different things. The first was upgrades to Tomlinson which were finished this fall, the 2nd is a new sports complex for track and field as part of that renovation in removing the track, and the last is new student housing. I think your third is the answer with yes, as Ellensburg is a bit remote unless you were to charter a team into Yakima and then drive the 30 or so miles either over 3 1000ft+ hills on I-82 or to drive through the Yakima River Canyon.

    Your third question I think is no, but maybe they are gauging it although the stadium would likely need more upgrades to move to D1-FCS.

    To add onto Tim's comments, the year EWU won the FCS title CWU lost to them on a neutral field by just 3.

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    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnequaFats View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if it were that OOC opponents were hard to find. I know in 2014 CSU Pueblo ended up playing Sam Houston after Angelo State backed out of the Colorado half of a home and home and no D2 team wanted the game. It was kinda of nice though. It cost us a home game, but we ended up kicking the crap out of an FCS semi-finalist.
    I remember seeing the score of that game. My jaws just dropped and that’s when I realized that’s the one team I feared could beat MSU Mankato in 2014. Sure enough I was right, Pueblo was a DAMN good team in 2014.

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    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by Twincitiesmav View Post
    I remember seeing the score of that game. My jaws just dropped and that’s when I realized that’s the one team I feared could beat MSU Mankato in 2014. Sure enough I was right, Pueblo was a DAMN good team in 2014.
    What a defensive war that game was. Still regret not seeing my friend Pat Larson. He was across the field with his brothers who had played for the Mavericks. Sadly, he passed away not too long after that. Miserable cancer.

    Anyway, I think there's a chance of a rubber match in the SR4 Semis this season.
    Last edited by MinnequaFats; 10-31-2018 at 12:58 PM. Reason: Quote function working for me again

  8. Default Re: Joining leagues

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    Last edited by North Ala Screwdriver; 10-30-2018 at 05:21 PM.


  9. #10

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by North Ala Screwdriver View Post
    The WAC is recruiting every D2 school in the West with a pulse. I can see joining D1 in many cases, but the WAC is a sinking ship. Everyone in it is trying to get out with the exception of Chicago State, who's just trying to stay alive from day to day.

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    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by tsull View Post
    They almost beat a great Montana team a decade or so ago, maybe less than a decade. I believe a late FG or late missed FG did them in. Montana I think played for the national title that year. WOU has played EWU (twice), Portland State, Montana State, and Sac State (a win on the road for WOU) over the years.
    2008......I remember it well. FG as time expired saved Montana in front of what was then the highest attendance at Washington Grizzly Stadium. 25,000.

  11. #12

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by North Ala Screwdriver View Post
    The WAC won't sponsor football, thus Dixie needs to try and get into the Big Sky if they want to keep football. NAU isn't far from Dixie, they have football and are in the Big Sky. Idaho and New Mexico State and others were in the WAC for football, everyone left for the Mountain West; UI and NMSU to the Sun Belt, which told them to leave. Idaho elected to go FCS (much to the chagrin of most of their boosters), while NMSU went independent (and went to a bowl game last year).

    The NCAA should put a moratorium on D-1 teams; MLB and NBA don't have 355 teams. They're deluting their product. In Dixie's defense, they consistently are 1st or 2nd in D2 men's hoop attendance. Utah doesn't have the population to support all those D-1 schools -- Utah, BYU, USU, Utah Valley, Southern Utah, Weber State, etc. If Dixie goes D-1/FCS, they'll most likely have to cut football.

  12. Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by tsull View Post
    The WAC won't sponsor football, thus Dixie needs to try and get into the Big Sky if they want to keep football. NAU isn't far from Dixie, they have football and are in the Big Sky. Idaho and New Mexico State and others were in the WAC for football, everyone left for the Mountain West; UI and NMSU to the Sun Belt, which told them to leave. Idaho elected to go FCS (much to the chagrin of most of their boosters), while NMSU went independent (and went to a bowl game last year).

    The NCAA should put a moratorium on D-1 teams; MLB and NBA don't have 355 teams. They're deluting their product. In Dixie's defense, they consistently are 1st or 2nd in D2 men's hoop attendance. Utah doesn't have the population to support all those D-1 schools -- Utah, BYU, USU, Utah Valley, Southern Utah, Weber State, etc. If Dixie goes D-1/FCS, they'll most likely have to cut football.
    The following sounds like that they are hoping the WAC adds football, If the WAC doesn’t then they would add another men’s sport and possibly the football be independent.


    From an NCAA perspective, Dixie State already meets the NCAA Division I FCS minimum of 14 sports, therefore it would not need to add any sports for eligibility purposes. However, for membership into the WAC, one of two things needs to happen: 1) football becomes a sport that is sponsored by the WAC; or 2) Dixie State would need to add a men’s sport to meet the WAC entry requirements. The deadline for the NCAA Division I application is June 1 each year and applying would require Dixie State to have a membership offer from a Division I conference; meet the sports participation minimum; pay an application fee of $1.7 million; and submit application with copy of feasibility study and Division I strategic plan. Once approved by the NCAA, it is a four-year process for full Division I membership status, which is outlined within this report.

  13. #14

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by tsull View Post
    First off, thanks Brandon for posting that you can't start the NCAA in D-1. I thought you could start in FCS, but you can't do that.

    Also, you can't just join a league because you want to. A couple years ago (mostly on the hoops board) they said WWU was going D-1 in hoops. I asked the question: "Which league are they joining?" It wasn't the WCC (private schools only), the Big Sky (have to have football), the Big West (which wants mostly California-only schools), or the WAC. Someone came up with the Great West, which no longer exists.

    WWU -- like college hockey -- doesn't move the needle anywhere. They're in a remote town with a tiny gym and don't draw that well by D-1 standards. Why would a California school sign off on that? Heck, a perfect fit for the WCC is Seattle U., and that conference (mostly Gonzaga) doesn't want them in, so they're in the far-flung WAC.

    If you want to move to something other than the 50-team RMAC, you have to have things in place: D-1 facilities, D-1 attendance, D-1 budget, etc. The NCAA by allowing 355 hoop teams -- mostly D-1annabees, who have no business playing D-1 -- has diluted their product and made everyone think they can be D-1. Heck, half the Big Sky shouldn't be D-1.

    * Speaking of the Big Sky, CWU is playing the University of Idaho next year in Moscow. I like CWU's chances.
    Wow, sounds like your describing New Mexico State. They check all the boxes but are in such a remote location no one wants them.

  14. #15

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by North Ala Screwdriver View Post
    The following sounds like that they are hoping the WAC adds football, If the WAC doesn’t then they would add another men’s sport and possibly the football be independent.


    From an NCAA perspective, Dixie State already meets the NCAA Division I FCS minimum of 14 sports, therefore it would not need to add any sports for eligibility purposes. However, for membership into the WAC, one of two things needs to happen: 1) football becomes a sport that is sponsored by the WAC; or 2) Dixie State would need to add a men’s sport to meet the WAC entry requirements. The deadline for the NCAA Division I application is June 1 each year and applying would require Dixie State to have a membership offer from a Division I conference; meet the sports participation minimum; pay an application fee of $1.7 million; and submit application with copy of feasibility study and Division I strategic plan. Once approved by the NCAA, it is a four-year process for full Division I membership status, which is outlined within this report.
    Yeah, not having Football is killing the WAC. Seems to me some one in the Commissioner’s office would figure this out.

  15. #16

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by dodger View Post
    The WAC is recruiting every D2 school in the West with a pulse. I can see joining D1 in many cases, but the WAC is a sinking ship. Everyone in it is trying to get out with the exception of Chicago State, who's just trying to stay alive from day to day.
    Right. The WAC is D1 in name only. They're an actor who has appeared as an extra in a movie while waiting tables in LA saying they're part of "the movie industry."

    California Baptist University - 5,878 & $16,034,476
    California State University, Bakersfield - 7,062 & $16,134,125
    Chicago State University 1,464 & $5,118,291
    Grand Canyon University - 14,542 & $22,250,576
    University of Missouri-Kansas City - 6,528 & $15,094,615
    New Mexico State University - 9,825 & $22,448,424
    Seattle University - 4,463 & $16,939,399
    The University of Texas Rio Grande Valley - 17,844 & $10,870,206
    Utah Valley University. - 16,975 & $12,034,215

    Only Grand Canyon and New Mexico State have budgets that even make me think D1.

  16. #17

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Right. The WAC is D1 in name only. They're an actor who has appeared as an extra in a movie while waiting tables in LA saying they're part of "the movie industry."

    California Baptist University - 5,878 & $16,034,476
    California State University, Bakersfield - 7,062 & $16,134,125
    Chicago State University 1,464 & $5,118,291
    Grand Canyon University - 14,542 & $22,250,576
    University of Missouri-Kansas City - 6,528 & $15,094,615
    New Mexico State University - 9,825 & $22,448,424
    Seattle University - 4,463 & $16,939,399
    The University of Texas Rio Grande Valley - 17,844 & $10,870,206
    Utah Valley University. - 16,975 & $12,034,215

    Only Grand Canyon and New Mexico State have budgets that even make me think D1.
    Chicago State can barely keep the doors open and they're trying to play D-1 sports. Why not find the nearest D2, D3, or NAIA league in the city of Chicago, where most of your travel is across town and call it a day. You'll never, ever win anything in D-1, never place in golf, track, cross country; never make either men's or women's hoop tourney, get last in your conference in most sports, draw 500 for men's hoops, etc. Why keep playing this silly D-1 game?

  17. #18

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by tsull View Post
    Chicago State can barely keep the doors open and they're trying to play D-1 sports. Why not find the nearest D2, D3, or NAIA league in the city of Chicago, where most of your travel is across town and call it a day. You'll never, ever win anything in D-1, never place in golf, track, cross country; never make either men's or women's hoop tourney, get last in your conference in most sports, draw 500 for men's hoops, etc. Why keep playing this silly D-1 game?
    People are stupid, Tim.

    I find the inverse to be crazy as well. Just because the WAC is "interested" in a school doesn't mean they should consider it. They are "interested" in Dixie State for the sake of their own survival. Dixie State has an enrollment of 5,529 and an athletic budget of $6,721,281. That's as "D2" as "D2" gets. But because the WAC is trying to survive they will feed into the egos of current administrators and get them to make decisions that could be detrimental in the long term.

  18. #19

    Default Re: Joining leagues

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    People are stupid, Tim.

    I find the inverse to be crazy as well. Just because the WAC is "interested" in a school doesn't mean they should consider it. They are "interested" in Dixie State for the sake of their own survival. Dixie State has an enrollment of 5,529 and an athletic budget of $6,721,281. That's as "D2" as "D2" gets. But because the WAC is trying to survive they will feed into the egos of current administrators and get them to make decisions that could be detrimental in the long term.
    What I don't get is why not try and go out and win D2 titles? Dixie doesn't win anything. They're in a great running area, they don't have any cross country championships. They draw 4K a game in hoop. They don't win hoop titles or advance to the NCAA D2 tournament as often as they should. They don't win that much in football.

    Why not get to 36 football scholarships, build facilities like Grand Valley, and kick butt there? Southern Utah went FCS/D-1 and outside of a Big Sky title a couple years ago, they're not very impressive. Does the average student really like to watch loser D-1 teams vs. winning D2 teams? In WOU's recent men's hoop regional playoff runs, they've drawn crowds better than half the Big Sky.

    The worst thing, however, is all these schools jumping up have to crank up student fees just to survive in FCS/D-1.

  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twincitiesmav View Post
    Why is CWU all of the sudden playing FCS teams? Desperate for money? Can’t find OOC game? Trying to move up to D1? Because playing EWU will likely cost them the postseason and perhaps in the future if they choose to play money games...
    Desperate for games. CWU is very happy with DII, and it fits the model quite well. The EWU/TAMUK change was due to the home facility not being ready, and it would necessitate the rental of another venue. Thew average take on a FCS type game is very small. When CWU went to Montana in 2008, they got a little over 100k. The EWU payout was a lot smaller.

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