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Thread: Team names, mascots and bands

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    Default Team names, mascots and bands

    I see the NCAA Force team name changes on schools which used indigenous peoples or characatures.

    Last weekend when the UNA Pride of Dixie band traveled to Alabama A&M (an HBCU school) the covered the letter d on their uniforms (it says POD, an acronym used for the band name). Now the school paper questions whether the name should be changed.

    How far do we take this? The Univ of Alabama is in Tuscaloosa, named after a Mississippian Chief Tuska Losa which means “warrior black” the city sits on the Black Warrior River and several things at the university are named Tuscaloosa or Black Warrior.

    Does PETA get to get the NCAA to ban all live mascots?

    No right or wrong opinions. No calling each other names. Just want others thoughts. Should the POD change its name to The Horn Honker band?
    Roar Lions, Charge On Chargers, Roll Tide Roll!!!!!

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    Quote Originally Posted by UNA_Texan View Post
    I see the NCAA Force team name changes on schools which used indigenous peoples or characatures.

    Last weekend when the UNA Pride of Dixie band traveled to Alabama A&M (an HBCU school) the covered the letter d on their uniforms (it says POD, an acronym used for the band name). Now the school paper questions whether the name should be changed.

    How far do we take this? The Univ of Alabama is in Tuscaloosa, named after a Mississippian Chief Tuska Losa which means “warrior black” the city sits on the Black Warrior River and several things at the university are named Tuscaloosa or Black Warrior.

    Does PETA get to get the NCAA to ban all live mascots?

    No right or wrong opinions. No calling each other names. Just want others thoughts. Should the POD change its name to The Horn Honker band?
    Squaw Creek in the 1990's was changed to Lmuma Creek in the Yakima Canyon

    https://products.kitsapsun.com/archi..._a_trip_e.html talks of the fishing and mentions the name change.

    I have to wonder about the local High School, the Kamaikan Braves named after a Yakima chief. If they have tribe approval though, I wouldn't see a problem much like with the Seminoles at Florida State.

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    My thought is that people try to take things just as far as they can until someone says no. Or better yet, says hell no.

    Remember when they said, we just want to take down Confederate statues? Now it is let us change the name of the Laura Ingalls Wilder Award. Where does it all end?

    MSU-Mankato used to be the Indians. So did UN-Omaha. Now both are the Mavericks. Ridgewater is still the Warriors- but instead of being an Indian Warrior, it is now a Viking Warrior.

    Yet- if you have enough money- you can keep your nickname. Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan..........

    I live in Minnesota. The Land of Sky Clouded Waters. I wonder if they will change that.

    Lincoln said that the song Dixie was "fairly won" and could be played by Union bands. I defer to his wisdom.

    Oh- should the Pride of Dixie change their name? No. Check that. Hell no.

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    That's the society we live in...EVERYTHING is a personal insult that demands the most swift and draconian changes. There is also a lot of hypocrisy to these DEMANDS for change. You can have a group that demands change to the point of violence/illegal activity for what THEY consider immoral, insulting and unjust and this same group will argue loudly against a group that considers an image, person or action offensive if the person/institution/group is part of the first group. It's as if only certain groups have the "right" to be aggrieved about anything. If you are not part of one of those groups, you have no right to complain or feel insulted by anything.

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    We talked about this in the PSAC board a while back. I think it comes down to how the school portrays its nickname. There are obvious nicknames that shouldn't take much to be deemed offensive: Redskins, Savages, Raiders, etc. The term "Indians" is hard because for so long that was still the preferred term. Its a hard word to drop - similar to describing things as Oriental. If a team uses a group by name they should logically have the blessing of the organization. We all know that's a moving target because groups can change their mind (see: North Dakota). For the less vivid nicknames (Chiefs, Warriors, Braves, plus European ethnic or nationality nicknames) I think it comes down to portrayal. I'll use my school for an example. They're the Fighting Scots. Is that an ethnic group? Sure. But they're pretty good at honoring the Scottish heritage of the school and town, which were founded by Scottish immigrants. The school fight song is an uptempo version of a classic Scottish bagpipe tune, plaid is part of their branding, plus they sponsor a bagpipe band, annual Highland Games, and sponsored trip to Scotland. The "Fighting" part of the name is an homage to the gritty reputation of the Scottish people. That's a big difference from simply having a Native American inspired nickname.

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    Back when I still lived in Iowa, Morningside College was The Chiefs in the old North Central Conference days and now Mustangs. Midwestern State (Texas) went from Indians to Mustangs. The list goes on. I think the NCAA has been far more aggressive with this, then most states I have seen for their high schools. You still see many Braves, Warriors, Madiens for ladies teams and so on out there.

    FSU has the backing of their named tribe. North Dakota had the backing of one, but several others refused to by their story that the school was trying to pay honor to their history within the state. So now there’s the Fighting Hawks, instead of the Fighting Sioux. Adapt and change or loose out on the change to host or participate in NCAA sanctioned events is the bottom line I guess.

    Political Correctness, is eating away at the foundation of many things in this nation.

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    Is the "THEY" that everyone refers to always the same person?

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    Quote Originally Posted by Runnin' Cat View Post
    Is the "THEY" that everyone refers to always the same person?
    I only saw one poster saying “THEY”.

    Who is this everyone you are posting about

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    Quote Originally Posted by UNA_Texan View Post
    I only saw one poster saying “THEY”.

    Who is this everyone you are posting about
    I see two. One wasn't capitalized, so there is that. In this MB, that means everyone.

    My point still stands....

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    This is an issue that is much larger than just sports team nicknames/images. But for the sake of this thread, I'll keep it there. Seems like this whole issue of who must/who should/who doesn't have to change their "offensive" nickname/imagery is an issue driven largely by small segments of each supposedly offended group with the largest part of the so called offended group, as a whole, not really giving a rats a$$ about weather the supposedly offensive team name is changed. It is also one that has a HUGE degree of hypocrisy with a large part of that hypocrisy driven by the all mighty $.

    Take my team for example, the Washington Redskins. There are a wide variety of theories on the origin of the term, it's original meaning and when it became offensive. One theory on the origin holds that the term springs from French trappers who referred to native American warriors specifically as peaux Rogue...this French term was a direct translation of a native American term having the same meaning. The direct translation of the French to English is Redskin. Note that this was a term used for warriors specifically and not the native American population as a whole. Over the years, there are many examples of native Americans referring to themselves collectively as Redskins in official and unofficial communications with the "Whiteskins." The term Redskins was not seen as a pejorative term even by the native Americans of the day.

    Do native Americans really view the term Redskin as a slur? Not a lot of data on this. My opinion about that is that the faction that does consider it a slur and who want the name changed don't really want the public at large to know how little support in the native American community they actually have...but I could be wrong on that. In the one existing poll I know about from 2013, 90% of the native American respondents did not consider the term as insulting or negative.

    So apparently what we have with the tern Redskins as a nickname for the Washington football franchise is that a small group of activists in the supposed offended group have found a way to grab the media spotlight for themselves by claiming to represent "all native Americans" as they FIGHT against a corporate "enemy" who are intent on insulting and discriminating against "their" people and "their" way of life.

    This group of activists and their media partners say the modern Redskin logo featuring the profile face of a native American with redskin is insulting to all native Americans and needs to be changed immediately. It should be noted that between 1960 and 1971, the Redskins logo did not feature a native American with redskin. The 60-64 logo featured a profile in white, the 65-69 logo featured a spear and no native American face of any kind and the 70-71 logo featured the letter R. In 1971 after the untimely death of Vince Lombardie (who designed the 70-71 logo), native American Walter "Blackie" Wentzel approached the Redskins and proposed a design for the "new" Redskins logo...That logo is the one that currently adorns the Redskins helmet and team paraphernalia. Who was Blackie Wentzel and what gave him the right to design the Redskin logo? Well, turns out Wentzel was a native American from the Blackfeet Reservation. But not just that, Wentzel was also the President of the National Congress of American Indians and a prominent leader of the Blackfeet Nation.

    It is said that the logo bears a STRIKING resemblance to Chief Two Guns White Calf of the Blackfeet Nation. Of course, I'm sure some segment of society would find it offensive to have the Redskin logo be the image of a Chief named Two "Guns" so they would probably DEMAND it be changed based solely on the fact that it honors a person with the name "Gun" in his name.

    This article sums up the opinion of at least some native Americans: https://www.greatfallstribune.com/st...eigh/19206641/

    Typically, there is a lot more to the whole "The name (or logo) is offensive and must be changed" debate but usually the side that want's it changed doesn't really want you to know that side. They only want you to hear their side of the argument and make the change based solely on emotion.
    Last edited by boatcapt; 09-12-2018 at 03:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    I thought redskins were potatoes

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    Default Re: Team names, mascots and bands

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    This is an issue that is much larger than just sports team nicknames/images. But for the sake of this thread, I'll keep it there. Seems like this whole issue of who must/who should/who doesn't have to change their "offensive" nickname/imagery is an issue driven largely by small segments of each supposedly offended group with the largest part of the so called offended group, as a whole, not really giving a rats a$$ about weather the supposedly offensive team name is changed. It is also one that has a HUGE degree of hypocrisy with a large part of that hypocrisy driven by the all mighty $.

    Take my team for example, the Washington Redskins. There are a wide variety of theories on the origin of the term, it's original meaning and when it became offensive. One theory on the origin holds that the term springs from French trappers who referred to native American warriors specifically as peaux Rogue...this French term was a direct translation of a native American term having the same meaning. The direct translation of the French to English is Redskin. Note that this was a term used for warriors specifically and not the native American population as a whole. Over the years, there are many examples of native Americans referring to themselves collectively as Redskins in official and unofficial communications with the "Whiteskins." The term Redskins was not seen as a pejorative term even by the native Americans of the day.

    Do native Americans really view the term Redskin as a slur? Not a lot of data on this. My opinion about that is that the faction that does consider it a slur and who want the name changed don't really want the public at large to know how little support in the native American community they actually have...but I could be wrong on that. In the one existing poll I know about from 2013, 90% of the native American respondents did not consider the term as insulting or negative.

    So apparently what we have with the tern Redskins as a nickname for the Washington football franchise is that a small group of activists in the supposed offended group have found a way to grab the media spotlight for themselves by claiming to represent "all native Americans" as they FIGHT against a corporate "enemy" who are intent on insulting and discriminating against "their" people and "their" way of life.

    This group of activists and their media partners say the modern Redskin logo featuring the profile face of a native American with redskin is insulting to all native Americans and needs to be changed immediately. It should be noted that between 1960 and 1971, the Redskins logo did not feature a native American with redskin. The 60-64 logo featured a profile in white, the 65-69 logo featured a spear and no native American face of any kind and the 70-71 logo featured the letter R. In 1971 after the untimely death of Vince Lombardie (who designed the 70-71 logo), native American Walter "Blackie" Wentzel approached the Redskins and proposed a design for the "new" Redskins logo...That logo is the one that currently adorns the Redskins helmet and team paraphernalia. Who was Blackie Wentzel and what gave him the right to design the Redskin logo? Well, turns out Wentzel was a native American from the Blackfeet Reservation. But not just that, Wentzel was also the President of the National Congress of American Indians and a prominent leader of the Blackfeet Nation.

    It is said that the logo bears a STRIKING resemblance to Chief Two Guns White Calf of the Blackfeet Nation. Of course, I'm sure some segment of society would find it offensive to have the Redskin logo be the image of a Chief named Two "Guns" so they would probably DEMAND it be changed based solely on the fact that it honors a person with the name "Gun" in his name.

    This article sums up the opinion of at least some native Americans: https://www.greatfallstribune.com/st...eigh/19206641/

    Typically, there is a lot more to the whole "The name (or logo) is offensive and must be changed" debate but usually the side that want's it changed doesn't really want you to know that side. They only want you to hear their side of the argument and make the change based solely on emotion.
    A better test would be for you to come with me to a powwow in Oklahoma, wait until around midnight, stand up and shout redskins, and see if you live through it.

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