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Thread: NSIC Division Alignment

  1. #1
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    Default NSIC Division Alignment

    I think most of us know that the south division has been more competitive than the north division for the last few years (all 3 NSIC playoffs teams were from the south last year). I know the NSIC changed the scheduling format where the crossover division games occur during the middle of the season instead of right at the beginning of the year. Personally, I don't think this really helps make the divisions more balanced.

    Just curious if there has ever been a proposal to switch up teams in the divisions. Like West & East for example... If it were a perfect world and easy to move teams, I would have Augustana, USF, Northern St., Minot St., Mary, Wayne St., MSUM, and SMSU in the west division. While over on the east side I would have Crookston, Bemidji St., UMD, SCSU, Concordia-St. Paul, MSU-Mankato, Winona St and Upper Iowa. I don't think this would impact travel too much because some teams already make long road trips.

    Crookston and SMSU were the toughest to place as they're both roughly on the same longitude. What are your guy's thoughts?
    Last edited by Twincitiesmav; 07-23-2018 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Typo

  2. #2

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Twincitiesmav View Post
    I think most of us know that the south division has been more competitive than the north division for the last few years (all 3 NSIC playoffs teams were from the south last year). I know the NSIC changed the scheduling format where the crossover division games occur during the middle of the season instead of right at the beginning of the year. Personally, I don't think this really helps make the divisions more balanced.

    Just curious if there has ever been a proposal to switch up teams in the divisions. Like West & East for example... If it were a perfect world and easy to move teams, I would have Augustana, USF, Northern St., Minot St., Mary, Wayne St., MSUM, and SMSU in the west division. While over on the east side I would have Crookston, Bemidji St., UMD, SCSU, Concordia-St. Paul, MSU-Mankato, Winona St and Upper Iowa. I don't think this would impact travel too much because some teams already make long road trips.

    Crookston and SMSU were the toughest to place as they're both roughly on the same longitude. What are your guy's thoughts?
    If you think there is imbalance now, your suggestion would make it worse. The East would be much tougher.

  3. #3

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Yes, we have discussed it a time or two

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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    It's been brought up, but at this point it's going to take the removal of teams to change anything for this conference. Sooner the better imo without trying to be disrespectful the conference is more balanced in non football athletics but we can afford to drop a few schools, as to who if like to leave I've been pretty vocal about a certain school

  5. #5

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmy21 View Post
    It's been brought up, but at this point it's going to take the removal of teams to change anything for this conference. Sooner the better imo without trying to be disrespectful the conference is more balanced in non football athletics but we can afford to drop a few schools, as to who if like to leave I've been pretty vocal about a certain school
    My personal belief is we may have two conferences one day based mostly on scholarships or haves/have notes. I'm sure there is more too it that it isnt do able but is it possible that there is a split in football conferences but all the other sports stay in same conference? I feel that is more a D1 thing.

    That said, Duluth does just fine no even offering the 28 while NSU has been offering max for years. So, I dont know what will happen but eventually something will.

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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by NSU4LIFE View Post
    My personal belief is we may have two conferences one day based mostly on scholarships or haves/have notes. I'm sure there is more too it that it isnt do able but is it possible that there is a split in football conferences but all the other sports stay in same conference? I feel that is more a D1 thing.

    That said, Duluth does just fine no even offering the 28 while NSU has been offering max for years. So, I dont know what will happen but eventually something will.
    Something will and needs to

  7. #7

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Mary/Northern Fri/Sat
    Bemidji/St. Cloud Fri/Sat
    Mankato/Upper Iowa Thurs/Sat
    Southwest/Augustana Fri/Sat

    Minot/Moorhead Fri/Sat
    Crookston/Duluth Thurs/Sat
    Concordia/Winona Fri/Sat
    Sioux Falls/Wayne Thur/Sat

    So basically I just split up the travel partners. This could be done in any assortment of ways. This is football only, so probably will be on popular but schedule could be set up where you arent making too many long hauls and honestly in some situations it might cut on mileage like Winona to Wayne both being in South now compared to going to Duluth.

    Just a discussion piece, not a suggestion. Not really worth the time but you could figure out a good formula. If budgets werent an issue you could do this for all sports but the way travel partners are set up for hoops now makes the most sense, though maybe this could be done too where travel distance isnt much more and then move to a thursday/Saturday or Friday/sunday matchup. Maybe even schools the options to go back to back if drive is close enough or Thursday/Saturday if distance is further. It isnt what we are used to but the MIAA isnt exactly a smooth schedule to follow, haha
    Last edited by NSU4LIFE; 07-23-2018 at 09:54 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Switching from North/South to East/West wouldn't improve the talent disparity between divisions and would make intradivision travel even worse than it already is.

    I think for any change to be made with the 16 teams currently in the league, the best route to go is a four-pod system.

    Just as a hypothetical:
    SW pod: USF, Augie, SMSU, WSC
    SE pod: MSU, WSU, CSP, UIU
    NE pod: UMD, SCSU, BSU, UMC
    NW pod: MSUM, NSU, Minot, UMary

    Every year, you'd play the three teams in your pod and then two other pods. It's basically the same as it is today, only the current NSIC South isn't guaranteed to play all 7 South teams every year. The three typical powerhouse programs of the past decade each have their own pod.

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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanger86 View Post
    Switching from North/South to East/West wouldn't improve the talent disparity between divisions and would make intradivision travel even worse than it already is.

    I think for any change to be made with the 16 teams currently in the league, the best route to go is a four-pod system.

    Just as a hypothetical:
    SW pod: USF, Augie, SMSU, WSC
    SE pod: MSU, WSU, CSP, UIU
    NE pod: UMD, SCSU, BSU, UMC
    NW pod: MSUM, NSU, Minot, UMary

    Every year, you'd play the three teams in your pod and then two other pods. It's basically the same as it is today, only the current NSIC South isn't guaranteed to play all 7 South teams every year. The three typical powerhouse programs of the past decade each have their own pod.
    Wow that’s actually a amazing idea! For the most part that’s balanced. But it’s only a pipe dream though.

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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Although no schedule is perfect, take teams performance from last two years and try to make an even schedule. Teams from the south say Wayne ST. would get some an easier schedule, UMD would get a more rugged schedule in the pre-divisional games or whole season schedules.

  11. #11

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by vikingfaithful View Post
    Although no schedule is perfect, take teams performance from last two years and try to make an even schedule. Teams from the south say Wayne ST. would get some an easier schedule, UMD would get a more rugged schedule in the pre-divisional games or whole season schedules.
    Whole the Division stuff is kind of cool and give everyone another banner to raise I wouldn't be totally opposed to just a fully randomized schedule without divisions.

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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanger86 View Post
    Switching from North/South to East/West wouldn't improve the talent disparity between divisions and would make intradivision travel even worse than it already is.

    I think for any change to be made with the 16 teams currently in the league, the best route to go is a four-pod system.

    Just as a hypothetical:
    SW pod: USF, Augie, SMSU, WSC
    SE pod: MSU, WSU, CSP, UIU
    NE pod: UMD, SCSU, BSU, UMC
    NW pod: MSUM, NSU, Minot, UMary

    Every year, you'd play the three teams in your pod and then two other pods. It's basically the same as it is today, only the current NSIC South isn't guaranteed to play all 7 South teams every year. The three typical powerhouse programs of the past decade each have their own pod.
    This is a legit idea. Under current conditions of each school, it appears pretty balanced. Keeps some rivalries together. I love the idea.

  13. #13

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanger86 View Post
    Switching from North/South to East/West wouldn't improve the talent disparity between divisions and would make intradivision travel even worse than it already is.

    I think for any change to be made with the 16 teams currently in the league, the best route to go is a four-pod system.

    Just as a hypothetical:
    SW pod: USF, Augie, SMSU, WSC
    SE pod: MSU, WSU, CSP, UIU
    NE pod: UMD, SCSU, BSU, UMC
    NW pod: MSUM, NSU, Minot, UMary

    Every year, you'd play the three teams in your pod and then two other pods. It's basically the same as it is today, only the current NSIC South isn't guaranteed to play all 7 South teams every year. The three typical powerhouse programs of the past decade each have their own pod.
    Or. Play your pod and 2 from each of the other 3 pods. This gives you 2 non-con games.

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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech Boys View Post
    Or. Play your pod and 2 from each of the other 3 pods. This gives you 2 non-con games.
    Non conference games? What are those?

  15. #15

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    stop the silly non conference stuff. We go through it every year and we aren't going there with a 16 team conference.

    Plus, schools lack money -- not going to then go and schedule a game 700 miles away instead of a close one.

  16. #16

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMustang View Post
    stop the silly non conference stuff. We go through it every year and we aren't going there with a 16 team conference.

    Plus, schools lack money -- not going to then go and schedule a game 700 miles away instead of a close one.
    Agreed. Plus you also have to find other D-II conferences that have available dates for non-conference games. Lets not go down the road of D-III or NAIA as those games don't help you at all in the regional rankings.

    I will admit I am not sure what schedules look like for conferences outside of the NSIC. But in the case of BSU, their closest non-conference games, at the D-II level, would probably be Michigan Tech (383 miles) and Northern Michigan (416 miles) (the same could be said for UMD, Crookston and maybe St. Cloud). Would I love to see those teams on the schedule, yeah, but that is from the hockey fan in me with both those schools being in the WCHA. But, would it increase casual fan interest enough that it would be profitable for the school? Probably not.

    I wouldn't even want to be Minot and try to schedule/travel for a D-II non conference game. Chadron or Kearney would probably be the closest options at 500 and 620 miles respectively. I guess that is closer than traveling to Upper Iowa.
    Last edited by Millsy; 07-25-2018 at 11:11 AM.
    Millsy

  17. #17

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Looking back to 2011, here were the opponents the last time NSIC teams had nonconference opponents.

    Augie: UMD
    BSU: Minot
    CSP: Minot
    MSUM: Robert Morris
    UMD: Augie
    MSU: Northern Michigan
    UMC: Mayville State
    NSU: SMSU
    SCSU: California (PA)
    SMSU: NSU
    U-Mary: Chadron
    UIU: Texas A&M-Commerce
    WSC: Nebraska-Kearney
    WSU: Michigan Tech

    So you basically have as Division II options, Michigan schools, Nebraska schools, other NSIC schools, or a lot of travel.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    This is all basically a moot point unless the MIAA, RMAC, GAC open up for non-conference games providing additional alternatives but I'll play along...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMustang View Post
    stop the silly non conference stuff. We go through it every year and we aren't going there with a 16 team conference.
    Plus, schools lack money -- not going to then go and schedule a game 700 miles away instead of a close one.
    If USF, Kato, Augie, etc. want to spend money to a non-con game against a NW Mo, Texas A&M Commerce, why shouldn't they be able to because Crookston and SW don't have the money? Or as it's been discussed before, ADs just like the convenience of not having to schedule a non-con game at all?

    This is why 4LIFE's hypothetical of haves and have-nots down the road seems plausible down the road. Especially if it starts costing teams in regional rankings. I still think the sample size is too small to know the effect, and with being in the new SR4 instead of the silo only SR3 the NSIC had previously, it is still tough to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millsy View Post
    Lets not go down the road of D-III or NAIA as those games don't help you at all in the regional rankings.
    Crookston isn't worried about regional rankings, but I bet those guys might enjoy seeing another victory. Let them schedule Dakota State, Presentation, or St. Scholastica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanger86 View Post
    So you basically have as Division II options, Michigan schools, Nebraska schools, other NSIC schools, or a lot of travel.
    If a NSIC teams wants to schedule another NSIC team, that's the perk of having a big conference, the option is there. It's been done in the past. We also have BHSU and Mines now on the west side of the SD for the USFs, NSUs, and Waynes. I bet they might enjoy a 5 hour trip to SF instead of 10 to Colorado. And I bet Wayne would love to play UNK/Chadron for in-state purposes. But if Kato and USF and WSU want to play GVSU or whoever, I think it'd be great. I know they'd love to play them, and we as fans would love to see the return of these PO-type teams as well to our home stadiums. It's not like there's zero options for teams in the NSIC footprint, this isn't the GNAC (RIP Humboldt State), but multiple conferences would actually have to loosen up for it to work.

    Anywho... The odds of this happening still seem slim but I'm bored and we need to talk about something for a few more weeks. I will say I was pleasantly surprised the NSIC went up to 36 even though some "schools lack money" in the conference. Heck, if Augie moves to D1 that would open up a week here anyway, maybe they're waiting that out.

  19. #19

    Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Otis Day View Post
    If a NSIC teams wants to schedule another NSIC team, that's the perk of having a big conference, the option is there. It's been done in the past. We also have BHSU and Mines now on the west side of the SD for the USFs, NSUs, and Waynes. I bet they might enjoy a 5 hour trip to SF instead of 10 to Colorado. And I bet Wayne would love to play UNK/Chadron for in-state purposes. But if Kato and USF and WSU want to play GVSU or whoever, I think it'd be great. I know they'd love to play them, and we as fans would love to see the return of these PO-type teams as well to our home stadiums. It's not like there's zero options for teams in the NSIC footprint, this isn't the GNAC (RIP Humboldt State), but multiple conferences would actually have to loosen up for it to work.
    Yeah, I'm not completely opposed to opening up for nonconference games. It would also allow for certain rivalries to continue on a yearly basis, even if they aren't in the same pod (ie. SCSU-MSU). I think more teams would try to schedule NSIC teams anyways, but it would allow some of the "top-tier" teams to schedule out-of-region games if they want to do so.

    As you said, some of the other nearby conferences would have to shift their scheduling habits too in order to create even more scheduling flexibility.

  20. Default Re: NSIC Division Alignment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanger86 View Post
    Yeah, I'm not completely opposed to opening up for nonconference games. It would also allow for certain rivalries to continue on a yearly basis, even if they aren't in the same pod (ie. SCSU-MSU). I think more teams would try to schedule NSIC teams anyways, but it would allow some of the "top-tier" teams to schedule out-of-region games if they want to do so.

    As you said, some of the other nearby conferences would have to shift their scheduling habits too in order to create even more scheduling flexibility.
    Why strive for open weeks? A conference game is likely geographically closer for fan travel, counts as an in-region game, ensures a school won't need to pay a guarantee or a home and home with extended travel costs, and guarantees your opponent won't cancel on you late in the off-season a la CWU to Kingsville.

    The only negatives I see to silo scheduling is that bad teams cannot schedule a money game against FCS or a cupcake win against lower divisions. If that is a school's complaint then I personally think TFB is a fair response.

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