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Thread: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    So the proponents of Title IX all agree that it has had no negative effect on men's sports??

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    If one were so motivated to look back over the history of Title IX litigation in college sports it's interesting how many of the really significant cases involved PSAC schools, namely IUP, Slippery Rock and Lock Haven.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    So the proponents of Title IX all agree that it has had no negative effect on men's sports??
    It did at IUP.

    We had Men's wrestling and soccer at IUP back in my day.

    They were Title IX victims.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPNation View Post
    It did at IUP.

    We had Men's wrestling and soccer at IUP back in my day.

    They were Title IX victims.
    The university used Title IX compliance as its rationale for cutting wrestling and soccer. Title IX didn't force them to cut sports. That's just how IUP decided to frame their compliance. They could have very easily just found the money. I think the problem was that Title IX made revenue more important than philosophy (a micro version of what we see at Power Five schools). If IUP wrestling or men's soccer were bringing in significant revenue at that time they would still exist. Our schools were so late to the game on athletic revenue building that it was too late. The article's shortfall is a typical look at college sports: spend lots of time talking about Power Five style Division I athletics then use Division III liberal arts colleges as the comparison. Division II is the unrecognized murky middle. Division III schools have used adding teams as a means for growing enrollment which is why they added programs. The idea is that if we add men's lacrosse they'll bring in so many thousands in new tuition dollars that outweighs the cost of the program. This concept was championed by Jeffrey Docking when he was at Washington & Jefferson College then became president at Adrian College in Michigan. His AD at both schools was none other than Rick Creehan - who failed miserably trying to apply the theory at Alderson Broaddus.

  6. #6

    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPNation View Post
    It did at IUP.

    We had Men's wrestling and soccer at IUP back in my day.

    They were Title IX victims.
    Wrestling, soccer and tennis, actually. But the IUP case partially lends itself to the hypothesis presented in the article regarding realignment of men's programs and reallocating money from "non-revenue sports" to football and basketball and blaming it on Title IX. We just discussed this. I say partly because there was a landmark decision brought about IUP athletics and the women's programs came out of it favorably. I think it was in the early '90's. I can't look up the specifics right now.

  7. #7

    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    The university used Title IX compliance as its rationale for cutting wrestling and soccer. Title IX didn't force them to cut sports. That's just how IUP decided to frame their compliance. They could have very easily just found the money.
    I don't agree with this perspective at all. It's too easy to say "just find the money." If Title IX did not exist, they probably would not have made changes, so I don't believe their affect can be so easily dismissed.

    Let's say my monthly income is $100. My Housing is $50 and food bill is $25 and utilities are $25. If the government mandated that all housing must be $75 (for whatever imaginary reason), I am suddenly -$25 per month. Now, I can get a second job (just finding the money) but I might also might be working 80 hours as it is and I have no time for a job. Instead, I don't eat. The fact that I must now starve or get a second job is a direct cause of the government mandate, just as trying to find other sources to fund programs or CUTTING programs is a direct result of Title IX implementation.

    If it's not implemented, things go on as usual.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    I don't agree with this perspective at all. It's too easy to say "just find the money." If Title IX did not exist, they probably would not have made changes, so I don't believe their affect can be so easily dismissed.

    Let's say my monthly income is $100. My Housing is $50 and food bill is $25 and utilities are $25. If the government mandated that all housing must be $75 (for whatever imaginary reason), I am suddenly -$25 per month. Now, I can get a second job (just finding the money) but I might also might be working 80 hours as it is and I have no time for a job. Instead, I don't eat. The fact that I must now starve or get a second job is a direct cause of the government mandate, just as trying to find other sources to fund programs or CUTTING programs is a direct result of Title IX implementation.

    If it's not implemented, things go on as usual.
    And it's not just a money issue. More females are enrolling college than males, so playing opportunities need to exist proportionally.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    I don't agree with this perspective at all. It's too easy to say "just find the money." If Title IX did not exist, they probably would not have made changes, so I don't believe their affect can be so easily dismissed.

    Let's say my monthly income is $100. My Housing is $50 and food bill is $25 and utilities are $25. If the government mandated that all housing must be $75 (for whatever imaginary reason), I am suddenly -$25 per month. Now, I can get a second job (just finding the money) but I might also might be working 80 hours as it is and I have no time for a job. Instead, I don't eat. The fact that I must now starve or get a second job is a direct cause of the government mandate, just as trying to find other sources to fund programs or CUTTING programs is a direct result of Title IX implementation.

    If it's not implemented, things go on as usual.
    I get what you're saying and agree. I support both sides of the argument. There absolutely was a need for equality in college athletics. If you read some of the stories of what women's basketball teams had versus men's its despicable. I have two daughters and would expect them to get fair treatment from any school team they're playing on. Women are also 55-60% of college students. So they have a serious argument that they deserve their fair share of opportunity but no less than equal opportunity.

    On the other hand, I understand the burden of men's sports (particularly football) is a lot heavier than women's sports. I'd even say that having football is detrimental to Title IX compliance. Having the big three of football, men's hockey, and men's lacrosse is very difficult to do at any level. There are women's equivalents of the latter two but the formula is difficult to master when you've got a sport with 80-90 roster spots. There has to be some sort of consideration for football since there isn't a female equivalent.

    Specific to IUP, they didn't have to cut wrestling and men's soccer. They chose to cut them. They could have also added more women's opportunities to stay in compliance. My point was that a school won't cut a well-funded program. They'll pick the poorly performing or poorly funded program.
    Last edited by Fightingscot82; 01-17-2018 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Did we not just go around this a few weeks ago, that IUP was acting upon a philosophy of guiding resources toward its major, revenue-producing sports, even at the expense of the other, less-popular programs?

    Now, the landscape and reasoning might have been different at the point in time that wrestling, soccer and tennis were sliced there. But if IUP was to drop a sport today, I think they'd have a hard time attributing it to Title IX.

  11. #11

    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    I get what you're saying and agree. I support both sides of the argument. There absolutely was a need for equality in college athletics. If you read some of the stories of what women's basketball teams had versus men's its despicable. I have two daughters and would expect them to get fair treatment from any school team they're playing on. Women are also 55-60% of college students. So they have a serious argument that they deserve their fair share of opportunity but no less than equal opportunity.

    On the other hand, I understand the burden of men's sports (particularly football) is a lot heavier than women's sports. I'd even say that having football is detrimental to Title IX compliance. Having the big three of football, men's hockey, and men's lacrosse is very difficult to do at any level. There are women's equivalents of the latter two but the formula is difficult to master when you've got a sport with 80-90 roster spots. There has to be some sort of consideration for football since there isn't a female equivalent.

    Specific to IUP, they didn't have to cut wrestling and men's soccer. They chose to cut them. They could have also added more women's opportunities to stay in compliance. My point was that a school won't cut a well-funded program. They'll pick the poorly performing or poorly funded program.
    Just to be clear, I am not taking a stance against Title IX. I'm taking a position against the opinions in that article.

  12. #12

    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Gannon is adding women's wrestling as a varsity sport.

    http://triblive.com/sports/college/d...stling-program

  13. #13

    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Clarion pulled a thrilling upset over No. 21 Rider last night in wrestling. The Golden Eagles also defeated Pitt earlier this season.

  14. #14

    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Clarion pulled a thrilling upset over No. 21 Rider last night in wrestling. The Golden Eagles also defeated Pitt earlier this season.
    That's impressive! As a LHU fan I certainly hope the Bald Eagles get Haines back at Hwt. or LHU will be in trouble when they meet up with Clarion in a couple weeks.. Clarion's Gromacki is also out with an injury. A lot of wrestlers banged up and trying to get ready for the tournaments.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    I saw the final match on Twitter. It looked like Clarion had a tremendous, fired up crowd. Wrestling is a big draw there.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    I saw the final match on Twitter. It looked like Clarion had a tremendous, fired up crowd. Wrestling is a big draw there.
    It helps that they're currently wrestling in their auditorium during Tippin renovations.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Whatever it takes ...

    I wouldn't care if IUP played in a parking lot if it got a loud and energetic crowd.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Whatever it takes ...

    I wouldn't care if IUP played in a parking lot if it got a loud and energetic crowd.
    That actually describes the old playing surface at Lock Haven.

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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports


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    Default Re: OT: Title IX and Men's Sports

    Well that is embarrassing. I could be wrong but I think this is the second suit she's filed against Edinboro. I thought I remember reading somewhere that she, her former assistant coach, and the women's soccer coach reached a settlement. So either this is a continuation of that suit or something else happened.

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