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Thread: PSAC WEST

  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvillejoe View Post
    This kid can score a lot of points in a hurry. I will be curious how he will do defensively. Going to have to hit the weight room and wonder if a redshirt year is in his future As a PIAA district 9 fan we will be rooting for him for sure. And I am sure there are a lot of north central PA HS coaches glad to see him graduate!!

    So as a newbie here and the last thing I needed was another site to follow, but oh well..... my question is this.... I see a lot of not really bashing but suggestion that Mercyhurst doesn't play the most exciting of basketball. And that certainly may be the case, but looking at the scores from their games the last two seasons their offensive average isn't horrible. Again, I am new not only to this site but to PSAC basketball as well so I really don't have a clue. I just find it odd that the Chambers kid would end up at a slow it down type system as he always seemed to be a score and score a lot kind of player. I guess slow it down systems still need shooters!!!

    There’s a few guys on here that are tremendous X’s and O’s basketball gurus and could add more, but just my take...

    I think college basketball, across all levels, is littered with guys who over coach. Gary Manchel And Mercyhurst is one of those programs. For a long time, Joe Lombardi and IUP were like that. Half court, work the shot clock, pound it inside, win in the low 60s. Lombardi’s program evolved to be more a wide open style of basketball while still staying committed to defense.

    The more I’ve watched college basketball, the more I’ve grown to dislike that “brand” of basketball that Mercyhurst plays. When I go to a game or turn a game on tv, I’m watching to see players play, not coaches coach. Distinct difference there.

    We can all bash some of the MEC teams, and sure, they aren’t perfect. But it’s fun watching those games. Watching Mercyhurst play basketball is painful on so many levels.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #1102

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by bvillejoe View Post
    This kid can score a lot of points in a hurry. I will be curious how he will do defensively. Going to have to hit the weight room and wonder if a redshirt year is in his future As a PIAA district 9 fan we will be rooting for him for sure. And I am sure there are a lot of north central PA HS coaches glad to see him graduate!!

    So as a newbie here and the last thing I needed was another site to follow, but oh well..... my question is this.... I see a lot of not really bashing but suggestion that Mercyhurst doesn't play the most exciting of basketball. And that certainly may be the case, but looking at the scores from their games the last two seasons their offensive average isn't horrible. Again, I am new not only to this site but to PSAC basketball as well so I really don't have a clue. I just find it odd that the Chambers kid would end up at a slow it down type system as he always seemed to be a score and score a lot kind of player. I guess slow it down systems still need shooters!!!

    Mercyhurst is seen as boring -- typically by the teams who get made to look like pretenders the night prior.

    Boring. Exciting. Dull. Whatever. Who cares.

    Manchal's team came in to Indiana this March and made then 30-2 IUP and West Liberty look like major pretenders. IUP looked like they'd never seen a zone before (have they?) and West Liberty was just blasted on the boards.

    The thing is with Mercyhurst, though, is that won't happen every year. Gary has to build up to that point -- or, like last year, hit the lottery with his one-year transfers (Patrick Smith and Jason Massey).

    They typically go back to 'above average' after a big season. Never easy to play but they seem to only get that one great team every 3-4 years.

    This upcoming season has the look of a total rebuild. Not only are Smith, Massey and several others gone, but returning (star to be) PG Derrick Ellis transferred out (likely not wanting to take part in the rebuild).

    So, 'boring' is a tough word to use. The last month of this past season, ... I may use the word 'suffocating' or 'dominant' instead.

    The other issue they have with being consistently very good is it's hard to find the right players to buy in to that system -- especially with Manchal more-recently starting to lean on transfers. That defensive system is hard to learn -- especially for one-year guys. He caught lightning in a bottle last season with Smith and Massey.

    I'd peg them to finish this upcoming season somewhere in the 17-13 range. They'll pull a big upset along the way because there are some teams (not to mention any names) that look like deer in the headlights against that zone.

  3. #1103
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Mercyhurst is seen as boring -- typically by the teams who get made to look like pretenders the night prior.

    Boring. Exciting. Dull. Whatever. Who cares.

    Manchal's team came in to Indiana this March and made then 30-2 IUP and West Liberty look like major pretenders. IUP looked like they'd never seen a zone before (have they?) and West Liberty was just blasted on the boards.

    The thing is with Mercyhurst, though, is that won't happen every year. Gary has to build up to that point -- or, like last year, hit the lottery with his one-year transfers (Patrick Smith and Jason Massey).

    They typically go back to 'above average' after a big season. Never easy to play but they seem to only get that one great team every 3-4 years.

    This upcoming season has the look of a total rebuild. Not only are Smith, Massey and several others gone, but returning (star to be) PG Derrick Ellis transferred out (likely not wanting to take part in the rebuild).

    So, 'boring' is a tough word to use. The last month of this past season, ... I may use the word 'suffocating' or 'dominant' instead.

    The other issue they have with being consistently very good is it's hard to find the right players to buy in to that system -- especially with Manchal more-recently starting to lean on transfers. That defensive system is hard to learn -- especially for one-year guys. He caught lightning in a bottle last season with Smith and Massey.

    I'd peg them to finish this upcoming season somewhere in the 17-13 range. They'll pull a big upset along the way because there are some teams (not to mention any names) that look like deer in the headlights against that zone.

    LOL

  4. #1104
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    This might be off base, but I've always seen those types of teams that play those styles as a cop out more than anything else. To them, it's probably easier to slow teams down, frustrate them, etc., then it is to run up and down the court, score, shoot threes, play basketball with a flow, etc. It's tough to totally say that about Mercyhurst though, given that they are deeper than IUP is each and every year (that's a different discussion though).

    Point being, if Mercyhurst played attempted to play more of an MEC game (with the proper personnel obviously), would they be any better suited? In my opinion, their gimmick defense and style of play keeps them in all games that they play regardless of the opponent's brand of basketball. To me, it's a cheap way to hang around every night. But I'm just a message board poster. Gary took his team to Evansville.

  5. #1105

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUP24 View Post
    This might be off base, but I've always seen those types of teams that play those styles as a cop out more than anything else. To them, it's probably easier to slow teams down, frustrate them, etc., then it is to run up and down the court, score, shoot threes, play basketball with a flow, etc. It's tough to totally say that about Mercyhurst though, given that they are deeper than IUP is each and every year (that's a different discussion though).

    Point being, if Mercyhurst played attempted to play more of an MEC game (with the proper personnel obviously), would they be any better suited? In my opinion, their gimmick defense and style of play keeps them in all games that they play regardless of the opponent's brand of basketball. To me, it's a cheap way to hang around every night. But I'm just a message board poster. Gary took his team to Evansville.

    I can see that argument in the case of what Mercyhurst did to West Liberty in this year's Regional. When a team runs in to that defense -- hitting on all cylinders -- and hasn't seen anything near resembling it all year -- that can be quite a shock factor to overcome. Add to it the EXTREMELY slow offensive style the Lakers run (shot clock to near zero every possession) ... and it can really frustrate a run-n-gun team. Recall they also won at Wheeling Jesuit in the Regional several years back when WJ was the host seed. Same story. They suffocated them.

    Now, in IUP's case this year, it was just baffling. IUP played Mercyhurst four times and scored less against them as the season went along. Part of that was because Mercyhurst was still vulnerable early in the season. But, it's hard to fathom now that IUP scored 50-some on them IN THE SECOND HALF of the first meeting in Erie.

    Let's not forget that literally a week prior IUP blew Mercyhurst out in the PSAC Championship game. The first Mercyhurt win here this year never should have happened. That was the famous no timeout call which resulted in a blown defense and wide-open Pratapas three as the clock expired. But, make no mistake, when it mattered the most in the Regional, Mercyhurst blew IUP out -- regardless of that final 10-point margin.

    I don't quite agree with the notion it's a 'junk' or 'gimmick' defense. It's just not the norm. When you have the right personnel it's very effective. But, it's different. Modern fans don't want defense and low-scoring games. Just ask John Reilly.

  6. #1106
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    WLU and Hurst seem like the opposite side to the same coin...One focuses it's efforts (and recruting) on offense and full game pressure and the other focuses on defense with a slow down (but efficient) offense. Both teams are at the outside edge of there particular "style." I don't think it is particularly hard to find players that play either style but what is hard is finding a coach (and AD and alumni) that is willing to forgo "traditional" (and higher rated) players in favor of players who fit the style the coach is going to run. Even at the DII level, it is hard to find an AD and alumni base that is willing to accept and give a new HC full freedom to recruit teams made up of players almost exclusively at each end of the spectrum.

    It would never happen for SOOOO many reasons, but it would be neat for Hurst and WLU to rent an obscure little HS gym in the middle of no where over the summer for a week and go at each other every day for 8 hours with no crowds...adjustment, counter adjustment, counter counter adjustment. Both teams would come out better for it...as they say, steel sharpens steel!!!
    Last edited by boatcapt; 06-18-2019 at 10:51 AM.

  7. #1107
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    WLU and Hurst seem like the opposite side to the same coin...One focuses it's efforts (and recruting) on offense and full game pressure and the other focuses on defense with a slow down (but efficient) offense. Both teams are at the outside edge of there particular "style." I don't think it is particularly hard to find players that play either style but what is hard is finding a coach (and AD and alumni) that is willing to forgo "traditional" (and higher rated) players in favor of players who fit the style the coach is going to run. Even at the DII level, it is hard to find an AD and alumni base that is willing to accept and give a new HC full freedom to recruit teams made up of players almost exclusively at each end of the spectrum.
    I think DANNY SANCOMB is going to put your theory to the test this coming year. His recruits are almost entirely of a body type and skill set that seems to say MEC basketball. Long, fast good ball handlers with no one taller than 6'7-8". With a solid core of young veterans, he will have to find a way to mix in some recruits to form what I hope will be an exciting and relevant team. Time will tell.

  8. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by CALUPA69 View Post
    I think DANNY SANCOMB is going to put your theory to the test this coming year. His recruits are almost entirely of a body type and skill set that seems to say MEC basketball. Long, fast good ball handlers with no one taller than 6'7-8". With a solid core of young veterans, he will have to find a way to mix in some recruits to form what I hope will be an exciting and relevant team. Time will tell.
    We'll see...In the past Sancomb has been a pretty traditional coach from a team building stand point. Within that traditional mushy middle there is a great degree of variation were a coach can chose to be and obviously if you get enough stars and support players, it can produce wins.

    Sancomb having a 500 team this coming season should be considered a BIG win for the Cal faithful.

  9. #1109

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Mercyhurst is seen as boring -- typically by the teams who get made to look like pretenders the night prior.

    Boring. Exciting. Dull. Whatever. Who cares.

    ...

    So, 'boring' is a tough word to use. The last month of this past season, ... I may use the word 'suffocating' or 'dominant' instead.
    One thing that I really like about college basketball is that there are so many different ways to approach the game and be successful. To me, "boring" would be every single team playing the same way. The fact that you can have a Mercyhurst team play shutdown defense and win the region one year, and a West Liberty team that plays up-tempo and emphasizes the three-pointer win another year is what I love about the game and keeps me coming back (even when Gannon is terrible). The top teams in the PSAC East generally have a different style than the PSAC West, so you have to be able to match up against the styles to win the league as IUP showed.

  10. #1110
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    We'll see...In the past Sancomb has been a pretty traditional coach from a team building stand point. Within that traditional mushy middle there is a great degree of variation were a coach can chose to be and obviously if you get enough stars and support players, it can produce wins.

    Sancomb having a 500 team this coming season should be considered a BIG win for the Cal faithful.
    .500 with 1-2 upsets mixed in would be nice !

  11. #1111

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    It would never happen for SOOOO many reasons, but it would be neat for Hurst and WLU to rent an obscure little HS gym in the middle of no where over the summer for a week and go at each other every day for 8 hours with no crowds...adjustment, counter adjustment, counter counter adjustment. Both teams would come out better for it...as they say, steel sharpens steel!!!
    My dream matchup for the past 10 years was Gannon and West Liberty in the NCAA tournament ... I always wanted to see how Reilly's defense matched up against the Crutchfield offense. Still sad we never got to see it (usually Gannon's fault for not making it far enough. sigh)

  12. #1112

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden89 View Post
    My dream matchup for the past 10 years was Gannon and West Liberty in the NCAA tournament ... I always wanted to see how Reilly's defense matched up against the Crutchfield offense. Still sad we never got to see it (usually Gannon's fault for not making it far enough. sigh)
    Gannon kept getting stuck with other PSAC teams in the tourney.

  13. #1113

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    WLU and Hurst seem like the opposite side to the same coin...One focuses it's efforts (and recruting) on offense and full game pressure and the other focuses on defense with a slow down (but efficient) offense. Both teams are at the outside edge of there particular "style." I don't think it is particularly hard to find players that play either style but what is hard is finding a coach (and AD and alumni) that is willing to forgo "traditional" (and higher rated) players in favor of players who fit the style the coach is going to run. Even at the DII level, it is hard to find an AD and alumni base that is willing to accept and give a new HC full freedom to recruit teams made up of players almost exclusively at each end of the spectrum.

    It would never happen for SOOOO many reasons, but it would be neat for Hurst and WLU to rent an obscure little HS gym in the middle of no where over the summer for a week and go at each other every day for 8 hours with no crowds...adjustment, counter adjustment, counter counter adjustment. Both teams would come out better for it...as they say, steel sharpens steel!!!
    Play next year and WL blows them out. That was Hurst's yearly 'every 3-4 year team'

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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Play next year and WL blows them out. That was Hurst's yearly 'every 3-4 year team'
    Yea...Most teams, even good ones, have a cycle. Except WLU...most teams would be VERY happy to have a WLU "down" year!

  15. #1115

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    Yea...Most teams, even good ones, have a cycle. Except WLU...most teams would be VERY happy to have a WLU "down" year!
    May be a good year to join.

    Minus WL, the MEC doesn't project too hot next year. ND, Concord and FSU got gutted. WJ is a total Titanic.

    Maybe if GSU gets LeBron cleared to play they will be decent.

  16. Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    May be a good year to join.

    Minus WL, the MEC doesn't project too hot next year. ND, Concord and FSU got gutted. WJ is a total Titanic.

    Maybe if GSU gets LeBron cleared to play they will be decent.
    LOL about GSC. WJU lost 92% of their scoring and still does not have a coaching staff.

    Glenville has some streaky 3 pt shooters, but played a fast-paced AAU, playground, iso style with little teamwork, passing or synergy and even less team defense. When they played that way at WLU, it was a disaster as WLU put 158 points on them (87 in first half). Had WLU made most of their open layups, they would have gotten another 12 points to set the D2 scoring record.

    FSU will be young but they have some talented RS freshmen. However, the unwillingness of FSU to change their coaching strategy in the Regional against ND was a real head scratcher to me. At this level most players can hit an open practice shot with no pressure from the corner 3s, regardless of the "statistics" from past games. But they did not change the stratey when it did not work. Felt sorry for the players as I thought the coaching strategy kept them from having a chance to win.

  17. #1117
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    May be a good year to join.

    Minus WL, the MEC doesn't project too hot next year. ND, Concord and FSU got gutted. WJ is a total Titanic.

    Maybe if GSU gets LeBron cleared to play they will be decent.
    I think FSU will be a decent #2 in the MEC this coming year. I think UC has a good shot at being a solid #3 and could challenge FSU for #2.

    Glenville...Hahahaha!! Kind of a team you don't want to play. If they are "on," they certainly can score with the best of them. Problem for them is they have just as good a chance of NOT being on ANY given night. Also their defense is effectively non-existent. As they say in boxing, you never want to fight a puncher...Glenville is the MEC's equivalent of a puncher!

  18. #1118

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by boatcapt View Post
    I think FSU will be a decent #2 in the MEC this coming year. I think UC has a good shot at being a solid #3 and could challenge FSU for #2.

    Glenville...Hahahaha!! Kind of a team you don't want to play. If they are "on," they certainly can score with the best of them. Problem for them is they have just as good a chance of NOT being on ANY given night. Also their defense is effectively non-existent. As they say in boxing, you never want to fight a puncher...Glenville is the MEC's equivalent of a puncher!

    I'm not sold on Fairmont at all unless there are some big imports nobody knows about yet. They lost a ton to graduation and had their best big man transfer out.

  19. #1119

    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Mercyhurst posted its roster. If they don't add a couple imports this summer ... may be a painful rebuilding year for the Lake Show.

  20. #1120
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    Default Re: PSAC WEST

    Quote Originally Posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
    Mercyhurst posted its roster. If they don't add a couple imports this summer ... may be a painful rebuilding year for the Lake Show.
    That's not the official roster... they are definitely missing two transfers that brought size. off the top of my head I can't remember who they were.

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