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Thread: NCAA Restructuring

  1. #1
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    Default NCAA Restructuring

    I think the NCAA should start holding the large state schools accountable in D2. They do not belong in D2 when many of the D2 programs are struggling. Today's current version of the NCAA Divisions need over hauling. The Small College Division was broken into 2 divisions, and now the largest NCAA Division is D3.

    The number of programs in D3 is ridiculous. Some of those schools are among the wealthiest in the country among private institutions.

    The NCAA should pressure the D3 programs with huge endowments to stop pretending without spending money. It hurts D2. The huge state schools in D2 need to transition to D1, and the largest Division among them all is Division 3.

    Costs could be saved for small D2 programs who want to compete at a high level. D1 needs more teams. D2 needs more teams and the NCAA should pressure the D3 programs with huge endowments to either get on board or move to the NAIA.

    The NCAA also needs to work directly with the NAIA in order to strengthen both entities by leveling the playing field for intercollegiate athletic programs across the Board. It would help the NAIA to be more academically productive on the NAIA D1 level.
    Last edited by alumnifan; 05-12-2017 at 07:55 AM.

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    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    How can you mandate a D3 school to move up when the universities or colleges ultimate responsibility is educate? I would think it would be close to impossible to do this. I totally understand your thesis but I would think the NCAA would want to even sniff at doing something like this. Just my humble opinion

  3. Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Good review but do not hold your breath

  4. #4

    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by alumnifan View Post
    I think the NCAA should start holding the large state schools accountable in D2. They do not belong in D2 when many of the D2 programs are struggling. Today's current version of the NCAA Divisions need over hauling. The Small College Division was broken into 2 divisions, and now the largest NCAA Division is D3.

    The number of programs in D3 is ridiculous. Some of those schools are among the wealthiest in the country among private institutions.

    The NCAA should pressure the D3 programs with huge endowments to stop pretending without spending money. It hurts D2. The huge state schools in D2 need to transition to D1, and the largest Division among them all is Division 3.

    Costs could be saved for small D2 programs who want to compete at a high level. D1 needs more teams. D2 needs more teams and the NCAA should pressure the D3 programs with huge endowments to either get on board or move to the NAIA.

    The NCCA also needs to work directly with the NAIA in order to strengthen both entities by leveling the playing field for intercollegiate athletic programs across the Board. It would help the NAIA to be more academically productive on the NAIA D1 level.
    There is a lot of ridiculousness in this post.

    Enrollment means little. That's a high school mentality.

    Kentucky Wesleyan has an athletic budget of $4.2 million. The biggest D2 budget I could find (D2 w/Football) is Grand Valley at $14.7 million. There is obviously a $10 million gap there and I understand that frustration, but you're trying to require Grand Valley to compete against schools like Texas A&M, which currently has a revenue of $192 million. Kentucky Wesleyan has a much greater change of overcoming a $10 million gap than Grand Valley would a $178 million gap.

    I do agree that some D3 and some NAIA schools could financially compete well in Division II as it currently stands.

    If you do look at enrollment, Kentucky Wesleyan's is 665. Compared to the "big state schools," it's much easier to make a case that Kentucky Wesleyan doesn't belong in D2 and should consider D3 or the NAIA.

    Division I should be the elite. Tim Sullivan has written about this a lot in the GNAC section. The movement should be downward, like Savannah State, not upward.

  5. #5

    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    University of Phoenix should win every sport. Enrollment 600000.

    The NCAA could have easily mandated a few things for D2 in their big media contracts keep schools from jumping. For instance. D2 final four televised on tbs TNT tru or cbs. Require D2 top 25 scores on all tickers that televise NCAA products. Have the D2 title on the d1 off day( huge success) in Atl. Allow an extra scholarship in all sports. The main reason teams jump up is for exposure. The NCAA pees on D2 like they are R. Kelly.

    The only schools that should have moved up the past decade are probably the Dakotas.

  6. #6

    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Also regardless of division teams should be at 80-100% on scholarships in the top 5-6 sports otherwise why are you there?
    None of this Oakland city crap either playing only 4 D2 games every year.

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    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    There is a lot of ridiculousness in this post.

    Enrollment means little. That's a high school mentality.

    Kentucky Wesleyan has an athletic budget of $4.2 million. The biggest D2 budget I could find (D2 w/Football) is Grand Valley at $14.7 million. There is obviously a $10 million gap there and I understand that frustration, but you're trying to require Grand Valley to compete against schools like Texas A&M, which currently has a revenue of $192 million. Kentucky Wesleyan has a much greater change of overcoming a $10 million gap than Grand Valley would a $178 million gap.

    I do agree that some D3 and some NAIA schools could financially compete well in Division II as it currently stands.

    If you do look at enrollment, Kentucky Wesleyan's is 665. Compared to the "big state schools," it's much easier to make a case that Kentucky Wesleyan doesn't belong in D2 and should consider D3 or the NAIA.

    Division I should be the elite. Tim Sullivan has written about this a lot in the GNAC section. The movement should be downward, like Savannah State, not upward.
    Your enrollment for KWC is a little low. It is around 835. Check the G-MAC website. Wesleyan has thought about moving to D3. The Board of Trustees presented the notion to the athletic boosters (All American Club) and they stated they would disband if that move was made.

    Also, you quote an athletic budget from a huge institution in Texas A&M. Why don't you compare the athletic budgets between Kentucky and Morehead State.

    Not all conferences are created equal. I still think equity is the bottom line.

    Dialogue is the key for all equity in all athletic associations. Berea competes in NAIA D2 and they have an endowment over $1 Billion. It's the largest in the state of Kentucky.

    I contend there needs to be dialogue among all athletic associations to strengthen each division. Kentucky has three D2 programs, and Wesleyan competed one season as an Independent in D1 due to their travel expenses.

    There is no scholarship small college division in the NCAA now.
    Last edited by alumnifan; 05-12-2017 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Silky Panties View Post
    University of Phoenix should win every sport. Enrollment 600000.

    The NCAA could have easily mandated a few things for D2 in their big media contracts keep schools from jumping. For instance. D2 final four televised on tbs TNT tru or cbs. Require D2 top 25 scores on all tickers that televise NCAA products. Have the D2 title on the d1 off day( huge success) in Atl. Allow an extra scholarship in all sports. The main reason teams jump up is for exposure. The NCAA pees on D2 like they are R. Kelly.

    The only schools that should have moved up the past decade are probably the Dakotas.
    I agree with everything you said. Also, D1 has two divisions for football. The other sports are all in the same division. Why can't they do that for D2?

    Nobody ever said KWC was a football power in D2. The G-MAC was invented and implemented by the NCAA as a test pilot.

    There are plenty of D2 State Sponsored programs that should move to D1. They might get the same number of scholarships, but state tax dollars pay for their facilities. How is that fair?

    128 teams make the D3 basketball tournament because there are so many programs. Those schools often have huge endowments. Heck, why not share the wealth. Who ever said athletics would diminish if athletic scholarships were extended? The oldest and wealthiest, most prestigious institutions in the USA come from the IVY league and they are in D1.

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    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    I think what is more likely to happen are fringe D1 schools dropping down to FCS. At some point in he future there is only going to be four conferences that matter. Big Ten, ACC, SEC, PAC12. They will get all do the meat. Schools such as Ball State, Toledo, and other schools in the MAC, Mountain West, Conference USA will have to determine if it's worth the expense to compete at that level. I know Ball State had had discussions, (very early stage) about dropping down in football because they cannot afford the full cost of tuition. If many of these schools follow suit, then why would a GvSU want to move up? Also, I just cannot see many D3 schools lining up to make the jump up a division because their nitch has always been about the "true student athlete". Most of these schools, in my opinion, really do put academics first. As for putting move D2 stuff on TV. Who would want to buy that? ESPN would be doubtful. I would say Fox passes. I do not think it would be lucrative enough for them to consider it. Just my two cents

  10. #10

    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by UFSwimDad View Post
    I think what is more likely to happen are fringe D1 schools dropping down to FCS. At some point in he future there is only going to be four conferences that matter. Big Ten, ACC, SEC, PAC12. They will get all do the meat. Schools such as Ball State, Toledo, and other schools in the MAC, Mountain West, Conference USA will have to determine if it's worth the expense to compete at that level. I know Ball State had had discussions, (very early stage) about dropping down in football because they cannot afford the full cost of tuition. If many of these schools follow suit, then why would a GvSU want to move up? Also, I just cannot see many D3 schools lining up to make the jump up a division because their nitch has always been about the "true student athlete". Most of these schools, in my opinion, really do put academics first. As for putting move D2 stuff on TV. Who would want to buy that? ESPN would be doubtful. I would say Fox passes. I do not think it would be lucrative enough for them to consider it. Just my two cents
    Just the two final four games or the e8. Who would watch? Plenty of given an opportunity. All the NCAA has to do is say you will televise these if you want the granddaddy. More would watch than a ESPN broadcast of Rider vs Wagner.

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    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Silky Panties View Post
    Just the two final four games or the e8. Who would watch? Plenty of given an opportunity. All the NCAA has to do is say you will televise these if you want the granddaddy. More would watch than a ESPN broadcast of Rider vs Wagner.
    I could see maybe CBS sports network or NBC sports network. The landscape is changing and I think the free spending ways of the mothership have passed.

  12. Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Two things:

    1) The NCAA needs restructuring, yes. D1 Is not anywhere close to a level paying field. D2 doesn't seem to have as clear a purpose beyond providing a place for schools with lower budgets. Forcing some of them, even state schools, into D1 is a BAD IDEA. Grand Valley et alia can't go to Lansing and say, "Give us more money for athletics". Heck, some state schools (like Chicago State, and the regional Louisiana schools) have been worried about their funding. States aren't looking to increase funding. If anything they want to cut it, and athletics, especially at non-prestige schools, isn't going to get a ton of support politically.

    2) I don't know how to do it, at least in practical terms. I have some ideas, but they'd never fly, and would probably just lead to a break​ away. The basic problem is twofold: the thousand or so members of the NCAA have vastly different budgets and vastly different goals for their athletic departments. Trying to put them all on a small number (say, less than 5) of level playing fields is difficult at best. There probably needs to be more levels, not fewer. But only the top division will get the money and game, and try telling the low and mid majors that they're going to have a better chance at less visible titles. They'd revolt. There's a reason they've chosen to be D1, despite their miniscule chances of winning.

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    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    I say let the power conferences form their own sanctioning body. They have the big budgets and the sweet TV deal. I don't see why their should be a spreading of the wealth. Every school has their fit if they just get truly honest. No one should be pressed into moving up or down because their needs to be a level playing field. Grand Valley looked into moving up from what I have been told and didn't want to increase their budgets that much. Prob hold more true now with dwindling help from the state. Schools in the MAC, C-USA and such need to get real and figure out what is truly better for their institutions. I get they everyone wants to be with the big boys but is that really what is best most of the time?

    If the big dogs in D1 move like it looks, then their will be a trickle down effect and maybe that will help out the D2 dilemma. Like had been said many times before on various threads, it's more likely that fringe schools will look to move down for money reasons.

    As for D3. My guess would be very very few of them would even think of moving up. Its not what they stand for.

    Just my opinion

  14. #14

    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by alumnifan View Post
    Your enrollment for KWC is a little low. It is around 835. Check the G-MAC website. Wesleyan has thought about moving to D3. The Board of Trustees presented the notion to the athletic boosters (All American Club) and they stated they would disband if that move was made.

    Also, you quote an athletic budget from a huge institution in Texas A&M. Why don't you compare the athletic budgets between Kentucky and Morehead State.

    Not all conferences are created equal. I still think equity is the bottom line.

    Dialogue is the key for all equity in all athletic associations. Berea competes in NAIA D2 and they have an endowment over $1 Billion. It's the largest in the state of Kentucky.

    I contend there needs to be dialogue among all athletic associations to strengthen each division. Kentucky has three D2 programs, and Wesleyan competed one season as an Independent in D1 due to their travel expenses.

    There is no scholarship small college division in the NCAA now.
    Nothing you said is outrageous here.

    My comparison was between the top spenders/earners in each division. I was just showing you, financially, that GVSU is more like KWC than it is like TAMU.

    As far as the enrollment goes, I used the equity in education website. Every school says its enrollment numbers are low on the site so it's a pretty good site to use for comparison.

    D2 is the scholarship small college division in the NCAA. D3 is the non-scholarship small college division.

  15. #15

    Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Thanks, Brandon, for the props. I would disagree with the statement that D1 needs more teams. They have 355 of them and I'd argue that 100 of them are just pretending, hoping to win their tiny conference basketball tournament and get in the Big Dance, lose by 40 in the first round and collect a paycheck. They bring nothing else to the table and rarely qualify for anything in any other sport.

    I'd put heavy standards to make D-1. You shouldn't be like New Jersey Tech and go 0-31 in hoops, play in a tiny gym in front of nobody and say you're D-1. That's insane. All these schools moving up -- Central Arkansas went 8-23 in hoops last year and averaged 1,300 at the gate. How is that D-1?

    Let's put it this way: Would you want 60 MLB teams? No. Why? Because your talent pool gets diluted and pretty soon your product stinks. I watch a lot of D-1 basketball and a lot of it is bad, really bad. Move those teams down and you see D2 get better and the elite players on the small D-1 schools transfer to other schools that are staying up, making that division better. I live in the Northwest and am familiar with a lot of the programs there. Gonzaga -- yes, national runner-up -- has 4 guys on their bench, who frankly would not start for my D2 alma mater, Western Oregon. They are awful. D-1 has benches like this all over. It's a fraud.

    How to you enforce it? Well, like football used to enforce it with stadium sizes and attendance, though a lot of schools (see Idaho ... in my hometown) faked their way into FBS. Portland State has a 1,500-seat gym and averages 550. Why should they be D-1? Sac State is the same, a gym so small they would not have been able to host their conference championships. They were worried a couple years ago that they might host and they were going to have to put up portable bleachers in their rec center. That's D-1? (They eventually didn't win the league ... they average around 500 a game.)

    D-1 hoops: Arena of 4K minimum; average 1,500 a game. You can't do this, you're sent down. Crank up the football a bit: 25K stadium minimum; average 18K at the gate. A lot of these D-1 A.D.'s just collect a check, don't market or build their program. There's no incentive to get better, they're D-1.

    I'd start kicking people down, make D-1 better, make D2 better. People will whine, sure. Be better, quit sitting on your duff and waiting for CBS basketball money to kick in. Do something to excel. If not, go D2 or just cut sports.

    I'm serious.

  16. Default Re: NCAA Restructuring

    Quote Originally Posted by tsull View Post
    Thanks, Brandon, for the props. I would disagree with the statement that D1 needs more teams. They have 355 of them and I'd argue that 100 of them are just pretending, hoping to win their tiny conference basketball tournament and get in the Big Dance, lose by 40 in the first round and collect a paycheck. They bring nothing else to the table and rarely qualify for anything in any other sport.

    I'd put heavy standards to make D-1. You shouldn't be like New Jersey Tech and go 0-31 in hoops, play in a tiny gym in front of nobody and say you're D-1. That's insane. All these schools moving up -- Central Arkansas went 8-23 in hoops last year and averaged 1,300 at the gate. How is that D-1?

    Let's put it this way: Would you want 60 MLB teams? No. Why? Because your talent pool gets diluted and pretty soon your product stinks. I watch a lot of D-1 basketball and a lot of it is bad, really bad. Move those teams down and you see D2 get better and the elite players on the small D-1 schools transfer to other schools that are staying up, making that division better. I live in the Northwest and am familiar with a lot of the programs there. Gonzaga -- yes, national runner-up -- has 4 guys on their bench, who frankly would not start for my D2 alma mater, Western Oregon. They are awful. D-1 has benches like this all over. It's a fraud.

    How to you enforce it? Well, like football used to enforce it with stadium sizes and attendance, though a lot of schools (see Idaho ... in my hometown) faked their way into FBS. Portland State has a 1,500-seat gym and averages 550. Why should they be D-1? Sac State is the same, a gym so small they would not have been able to host their conference championships. They were worried a couple years ago that they might host and they were going to have to put up portable bleachers in their rec center. That's D-1? (They eventually didn't win the league ... they average around 500 a game.)

    D-1 hoops: Arena of 4K minimum; average 1,500 a game. You can't do this, you're sent down. Crank up the football a bit: 25K stadium minimum; average 18K at the gate. A lot of these D-1 A.D.'s just collect a check, don't market or build their program. There's no incentive to get better, they're D-1.

    I'd start kicking people down, make D-1 better, make D2 better. People will whine, sure. Be better, quit sitting on your duff and waiting for CBS basketball money to kick in. Do something to excel. If not, go D2 or just cut sports.

    I'm serious.
    Good idea. I actually think this discussion needs to "think outside the box." Why just 3 divisions? I favor a High School type model with 4 or 5 divisions in sports, especially basketball. With 1,100 NCAA schools it might work out to around 200 in each division. D1 - big schools with big budgets (Power conferences, etc), D2 - big schools with small budgets (current lower D1 and big state-schools D2), D3 - medium schools with medium budgets, D4 - small schools with medium budgets, D5 - small schools with small budgets.

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